Don't like freedom?

[grannywils]

Ok, enough already. This thread is about freedom. Yes?

I am tired to death of posters who insist on pointing out that this particular forum (i.e. Nexus) contains more Liberals than Conservatives. Well excuse us all to Hell. I cannot help that. Go find some more Conservatives to post then. Just stop your darn whining about it. Everyone is entitled to post. So post already.

 

But that is not my real beef here. Ginny, you frequently mention "those on the left" as if we are imbeciles; and yet you frequently accuse us of doing that to those on the right. I, for one have never done anything of the kind. I show respect to all my fellow posters. When someone makes a good point, be he from the right or from the left, I give him/her credit. If I make a mistake, I say so. There are relatively few posters from the right who have ever shown the same respect Aurielius is one outstanding exception (and no, not the only one). And, yes, if I get annoyed with a fellow poster, I say so too. But I direct it at that poster. No over arching generalizations at the whole rightwing movement.

 

If you have a problem with a specific poster, please say so by name. I see myself being thrown into the pot with the "liberals" or the "left" or the "democrats" much too often to suit me, particularly when the response is quite obviously meant to be directed to a specific post. I apologize for the fact that some of us may not be as intellectually gifted as others of us, but we are still entitled to our opinions and to the expression of same. Sometimes more patience is required from all of us in those cases.

 

The real point though is that all of us want freedom. It is not a rightwing or leftwing movement. I find it hard to take seriously those posters from either side who seem to just have it in for a certain segment of the political populace, without regard for what an individual might actually have to say.

 

 

 

[ginnyfizz]

The ancient writ of habeas corpus is the common law protection against wrongful detention and you really should know what it is, since it was also one of the principles that guided the Founding Fathers. Literally it means "You may have the body".

 

Using the soi disant War On Terror as an excuse, the Labour Government extended the time that suspects can be held without charge. All very well, but they also extended what they please to call terrorists to mean "anyone who goes to demos and yells rude things about Tony B.Liar..." which I did on a demo against the abolition of hunting with dogs. Yeah, we don't even have the freedom to kill vermin.

 

So it goes on, Socialist Governments flushing ancient liberties down the loo when they do not suit. And we can't even manage to impeach Tony Blair for his series of porkies to the House and his dodgy dossier, let alone charge him with High Treason.

 

By the way, referring to something Grannywils said earlier, if you were to take a look at UK politics Granny, you would see why it is easy to equate "Liberal" with "left wing". Our Liberal Democrat Party, notwithstanding their current coalition with the Conservative Party, have a sizable proportion of members who may fairly be said to be on the extreme Left (probably somewhat to the left of one Leon Trotsky in many cases.)

The US can also hold people they suspect of terrorism without charge...

 

Still not seeing how it relates to socialism.

 

Our particular laws got passed under a socialist government, that's how, in this particular case. The EU is another example of a big and corrupt Socialist behemoth that hands out goodies to its lackeys whilst dismantling sovereignty of individual countries. Socialism in practice, Marharth, is control freakery gone mad.

 

But that is not my real beef here. Ginny, you frequently mention "those on the left" as if we are imbeciles; and yet you frequently accuse us of doing that to those on the right. I, for one have never done anything of the kind.

 

Rubbish. I have never yet called anyone by such a name, and yes you HAVE, Granny, you said that Kendo wouldn't know what a Liberal was if he came face to face with one. Is this a case of you can dish it out and not take it? Don't like hearing about the Left bias of the posters on this forum? Well it's is a fact that happens, but I am certainly not going to let that shut me up.

 

You, Grannywils, have never actually experienced Socialist erosion of freedom in practice, although watch this space if Obama gets a second term. I have. I have family members who have been imprisoned because of it. The Socialist desire to control all aspects of life from the cradle to the grave leads inevitably to the "whether you like it or not" and "We know what's good for you" scenario. If you cannot take seriously someone who has actually experienced something and can talk from that perspective, then heaven help you.

[marharth]

The ancient writ of habeas corpus is the common law protection against wrongful detention and you really should know what it is, since it was also one of the principles that guided the Founding Fathers. Literally it means "You may have the body".

 

Using the soi disant War On Terror as an excuse, the Labour Government extended the time that suspects can be held without charge. All very well, but they also extended what they please to call terrorists to mean "anyone who goes to demos and yells rude things about Tony B.Liar..." which I did on a demo against the abolition of hunting with dogs. Yeah, we don't even have the freedom to kill vermin.

 

So it goes on, Socialist Governments flushing ancient liberties down the loo when they do not suit. And we can't even manage to impeach Tony Blair for his series of porkies to the House and his dodgy dossier, let alone charge him with High Treason.

 

By the way, referring to something Grannywils said earlier, if you were to take a look at UK politics Granny, you would see why it is easy to equate "Liberal" with "left wing". Our Liberal Democrat Party, notwithstanding their current coalition with the Conservative Party, have a sizable proportion of members who may fairly be said to be on the extreme Left (probably somewhat to the left of one Leon Trotsky in many cases.)

The US can also hold people they suspect of terrorism without charge...

 

Still not seeing how it relates to socialism.

 

Our particular laws got passed under a socialist government, that's how, in this particular case. The EU is another example of a big and corrupt Socialist behemoth that hands out goodies to its lackeys whilst dismantling sovereignty of individual countries. Socialism in practice, Marharth, is control freakery gone mad.

Still not entirely convinced.

 

Also just to make myself clear, I am not auguring for socialism. I am saying socialism may be able to work.

[ginnyfizz]

I doubt it, Marharth, the theory will always be corrupted by the people operating it.

[marharth]

I doubt it, Marharth, the theory will always be corrupted by the people operating it.

The same could be said for capitalism though.

[HeyYou]

I doubt it, Marharth, the theory will always be corrupted by the people operating it.

The same could be said for capitalism though.

 

Quite true. In reality, there is NO form of government that won't have some level of corruption. Where you have people in power, you have people taking advantage of that power to line their own pockets. It's basically human nature.... They also tend to put laws in place to make sure they get to STAY in power, and the people end up with less and less control over their daily lives. (Freedom) In the last 30 years, I have watched our country go from a functioning (for the most part) republic, to a corporatacracy. The folks at the very top, control the lawmakers.... They control the big money, basically decided who gets elected, and who does not, maybe even who runs... and who does not.... and the people get the illusion of some control, by casting their vote.

[ginnyfizz]

I can't say I totally disagree with either of you there. Both systems are corrupt in their ways, but socialism has issue of being inherently opposed to freedom.

[marharth]

I can't say I totally disagree with either of you there. Both systems are corrupt in their ways, but socialism has issue of being inherently opposed to freedom.

Well at its root it is simply trying to do more of a government controlled economic policy and social programs. That's why I think a lot of other factors can decide if it turns out being bad or good.

[grannywils]

Ginny said: Rubbish. I have never yet called anyone by such a name, and yes you HAVE, Granny, you said that Kendo wouldn't know what a Liberal was if he came face to face with one. Is this a case of you can dish it out and not take it? Don't like hearing about the Left bias of the posters on this forum? Well it's is a fact that happens, but I am certainly not going to let that shut me up.

 

You, Grannywils, have never actually experienced Socialist erosion of freedom in practice, although watch this space if Obama gets a second term. I have. I have family members who have been imprisoned because of it. The Socialist desire to control all aspects of life from the cradle to the grave leads inevitably to the "whether you like it or not" and "We know what's good for you" scenario. If you cannot take seriously someone who has actually experienced something and can talk from that perspective, then heaven help you.

 

Ginny, you have managed to misunderstand me, or I have managed to mislead you. In any case, let me be more clear. I did not mean to imply that you had "called" anyone an imbecile. I meant to say that you just tend to imply that some of us do not know are hind ends from page 3 (as the saying goes). And yes I did specifically address Kendo by name (not the whole right in general, mind you) and suggest that he would not know a "true" Liberal if one came up and stood nose to nose with him. However as I pointed out to you when you brought this up to me immediately following my remark, that this had nothing to do with my perception of his intellect, which I believe to be extraordinary, and for which I have a great deal of respect. It had more to do with my belief that he tends to put most of us in one pot and pay no attention to who we are or what we think or say. I most assuredly could be wrong about that. I base this belief on the tenor of most of his posts.

 

You Ginny have spoken a great deal in other threads about your grandparents and what you have lived through, etc., and I have been most fascinated and impressed with your knowledge of European history. I tend to keep closer to the vest on many of these things (for my own reasons). But my grandfather was a Hungarian Jew. he too had many stories to tell. I listened very carefully to him as well. I just say this by way of letting you know that I may have more knowledge of some European history than I always let on.

 

 

[ginnyfizz]

You yourself admit to stereotyping, then.

 

I don't give my examples from experience to show off knowledge as such, but to illustrate a point rather than theorizing. To me there is nothing more potent than a real life example of something gone badly wrong as an argument for not implementing the failed system elsewhere. The US has it's flaws, but the Founding Fathers gave it that great bulwark against over weeningly ambitious grandstanders like the current President - you have your constitution. I say don't let it go.