Incanus Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 What??!? I hit quote, not edit! Sorry, seems I edited your post accidentally and lost the first few sentences. Just edit them back in if you consider them important. -Peregrine 1) there had to have been a beginning. That a finite object(from which multiple universes could spring) is eternal is counter logical. Without a beginning AND a willful design, there would have been nothing to determine the order or scale of any universe, including the one in which we live. 2) the probability of a single universe coming into existence with any particular life supporting property is 0, much less the number of life supporting properties we currently observe coming together in a single entity "by accident" Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted December 8, 2003 Author Share Posted December 8, 2003 1) there had to have been a beginning. That a finite object(from which multiple universes could spring) is eternal is counter logical. Without a beginning AND a willful design, there would have been nothing to determine the order or scale of any universe, including the one in which we live. Not necessarily. As I said, we can not assume all our laws in this universe are true for whatever came before it. All we can state is that there was probably something before it. And once again, the key point is willful design. You still don't provide any evidence that our universe could not have been created by inanimate forces/entities. 2) the probability of a single universe coming into existence with any particular life supporting property is 0, much less the number of life supporting properties we currently observe coming together in a single entity "by accident" Wrong. Assuming an infinite number of possible (and different) universes, the probability of any one property appearing is 1/infinite. The exact same probability of all of the ones we have here appearing in combination. And the exact same probability of a universe in which I am god. If there are infinite different possibilities, any thing that can be an option, is. So the odds of any specific universe being "selected" from that pool of options for creation is greater than zero, and therefore can happen. And since we can't assume anything about the creation of the universe before ours, an infinitely long chain of universes is possible. In that case, our univese has to appear at some point. Finally, I have two points I want addressed.1) How it is necessary that our universe be created as a deliberate act by a willful entity capable of both thought and action. Pretty much why the final answer is God, and not some inanimate force.2) Do you claim that this willful entity still exists and has an effect on our universe beyond its initial creation, or merely that the entity prior to the existence of our universe was a willful one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Corbett Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 This should be interesting. Two people actively witnessing against eachother. Unfortunately, it can be rather spammish to the other members -- what do you intend to prove by not doing this under PM? The fact of the matter is, I doubt that the ulimate origins of the universe can be determined in a debate between two members of a Morrowind forum. Really, both ideas have merit, but I find that there really is no evidence against intelligent design, and that random chance is quite unlikely. However, nothing in that evidence is anything but circumstantial and proves nothing given infinite possibilities: in the end, reason is important, but so is faith. Some things you should believe, sometimes, just based on faith. The sunset is beautiful... I don't know what makes it beautiful, but it is. [usually. :P] People love eachother in irrational ways contrary to their self interest... logic creates paradoxes... how do we know that what we believe today in the field of science won't be proven wrong by an enterprising scholar and that students in a classroom four hundred years from now will all ridicule us for thinking something like (insert x concept) like we may ridicule people for thinking that the Earth is flat and that the Sun rotates around it. However, at least today people have finally recovered from the damage Aristotle did to the scientific field. Good luck, Incanus, but although I believe your side of the story and always have, I'd have to say that it's very hard to convince someone on a matter of faith actively. I think that there's a lot of trouble on this since the two sides view things with different values; ie Marx and myself. His idea may have seemed like a paradise to him, but it seems like hell on earth to me. So, even if you have good arguments, the fact is that there's uncertainty and ambiguity in any concept. However, the strange bit is, that there's no real evidence pointing towards either side. [sure, you have evolution, but there's nothing stating that evolution couldn't have been done by intelligent design.] It comes down to philosophy. And, after this marathon post, I'm going to stay right out of this topic since I hate philosophical arguments about as much as I hate cliff racers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikeman85 Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 We're not allowed to enter yet Dr, even if you'd prefer to. Let Incanus argue with Peregrine until they give the word to release the dogs of war. Then we will all have a frenzy :) And the first thing I'll be doing is pointing out a misrepresentation in your argument, of my position ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Corbett Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Who said anything about me making an argument? I was just saying that, chances are, a few people on a message board -- let alone two -- could never determine something of such monumentous import. I can wait, though, till they do let loose the dogs of war and all hell breaks loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted December 14, 2003 Author Share Posted December 14, 2003 Incanus, are you conceding the debate, or just not around to post? If you're done arguing for whatever reason, could you at least post that so that I can lock or open this thread to general discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magatsu Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 (please continue this debate openly, i think it is very interesting and dont want to miss it :) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zmid Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Seeing as you two are concerned with what came before our universe, I will post this without really posting it in favour of either side - according to one theory, what came before our universe was another universe. According to this theory, this universe is actually one in a chain of universes which explode from a very small volume in a Big Bang, expand to a mind staggering size, then contract back down into a very small volume ready for the next Big Bang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormscape Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 hmm... What if Entity A was from the previous Universe, and was given his powrs by his god, called Entity B So that he could fix things because the previous universe got destroyed. And it is possible for a bizzare conincedence of events to create something. Think. Stainless Steel was discovered in this way. Through coincidence.He just happened to be testing steel strength but for some reason he left to rejected sample alone. Then 14 months later, he was lceanign up and noticed Sample C we shall call it didn't rust. thgerefore he found Stainless Steel by accident. the universe could have been created by accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted January 7, 2004 Author Share Posted January 7, 2004 Well, since Incanus is apparently never coming back... I'm opening this to general discussion. The question for debate: 1) The universe was created by a god of some kind.2) This god was an intelligent entity, and did it as a conscious act. Note the second point... if you want to argue in favor of divine creation, please justify the requirement the creating entity be God as traditionally stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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