Fallout 4 - a major Synth plothole question

[CyrusAmell]

Tbh, it's the first time I hear about ShoddyCast, but if they help spread some knowledge, it sounds like something good.

 

If you like the spread of knowledge, especially Fallout & Elder Scrolls, then you will love their Youtube Channel.

 

Fair Warning set some time aside before you throw yourself down that rabbit hole.

[Umpfeo]

I'll answer the ops question by explaining the Institutes motivation and the point of the Synths. Its mostly explained by one holotape in particular Director's recording 52.

The Synth program was an attempt to restore order and civilisation to the commonwealth by creating an army of androids. They could act as a policing force as well as rebuilding the infrastructure. Androids are perfect for this because they are unaffected by the hazards of the wasteland, never tire and are completely obedient. Making them resemble humans slightly was not motivated by combat more by making them seem less threatening to the Commonwealth population.

However the Broken Mask Incident caused the Institute to adopt a policy of isolation rather than co-operation even going so far as to remove the entrance to their base. This secretive policy of hiding themselves and their activities from the Commonwealth meant they had to develop the 3rd generation Synths to continue their operations on the surface. The 3rd generation Synths are a little too perfect they are essentially robots as are 1st and 2nd gen but with emotions and feelings being added to them for better infiltration. Its not even entirely clear if they are organic. They are not created by reproduction or grown in vats they are manufactured just like robots out of most likely synthetic parts that mimic real human tissue.

Why is the institute abducting people its not always made clear. It could be because the person is a potential scientist and they replace them with their perfect body double. Maybe the person has terminal illness and they see an opportunity to plant a spy in the Commonwealth. It starts to become an issue when they send out the replacements when the persons still alive which I think is hinted at. A lot of the issues with the institute seem to be from internal pigheadedness, administration errors or possibly sabotage from the inside.

Which comes to the running theme of the Institute what would happen if you had a closed group of very intelligent, skilled and slightly misguided people who were not accountable to anyone but themselves.

 

The bigger question is what was the point of the Railroad and their objectives. They don't seem to realise they are essentially trying to free mr handy robots. Whats the point of freeing a Synth when an Institute agent can speak a pass phrase and they get returned to a factory default setting or starts working for the Institute again while pretending to be human. Its even suggested that the Synths gradually deteriorate in behaviour which can lead to all sorts of problems. The Railroad would have better spent their time trying to stop abductions and Synth replacement.

[Moraelin]

I find the Railroad even more misguided than that.

 

As made amply clear in Emergent Behaviour (and in the conversation with Ada), and supported by RL neuroscience, who you are is basically the sum of your memories. All your decisions, likes and dislikes, etc, are based on previous experiences. You're an intelligent being. You learn. You put your finger in the candle flame once as a kid, you learn not to do it again. That's the defining thing of intelligence. Even the people you love as parents or siblings, are people you imprinted on as a child. It's the result of information stored in your noggin. It's a result of your remembering your time and interactions with those people.

 

If you could wipe it all clean and replace it with someone else's memories, that won't be you any more. It will be that other person in your body.

 

Think of Emergent Behaviour, really. After you transfer Curie's mind into G5-19's body, who is really your companion? G5-19 or Curie? It's Curie, innit? G5-19 just ceased to exist. Her body was reused for Curie, but the old G5-19 is gone.

 

And the conversation with Glory makes it amply clear that Glory realizes that. Hell, both Glory and Amari know that all previous personality and all are all but gone after the procedure. But anyway... When it's about her friend, suddenly it's no longer an idealistic talk of giving synths a new life and all. It's taking a bit of a funeral tone, and it's about G5-19's sacrifice.

 

Because that's really what it is.

 

And the Railroad is goading synths by the dozen into being erased from existence. It's a mass murder operation, basically.

 

Plus, think if it this way: exactly when DO you get told that their mind-wipe procedure routinely leaves synths in a brain-dead state? Only when you need a body for Curie, innit? Otherwise they'd let you think it's all sunshine and unicorn rainbow farts from there on for the synths you help get to Amari. Do you think they tell synths about that risk? I kinda doubt it.

 

So yeah, it's an odious operation, mostly for the sake of making its perpetrators feel good about "paying off some youth sins".

[Athanasa]

So yeah, it's an odious operation, mostly for the sake of making its perpetrators feel good about "paying off some youth sins".

 

Plus there's the records in the Institute of a courser who had an eye injury or something that gave them blurry vision on that side. The Institute basically mind wiped them and sent them to work in the mines because their body would never be Courser Tier again.

 

 

 

"Unit X4-72 complaining of blurred vision in right eye." [unable to correct w/o permanent damage, unit wiped and reassigned to Facilities division]

[virsia]

even though this threat in spoiler I will warn you this is full of spoilers!!!! read at your own risk.

 

institute is entirely new faction with very little info about them nor clear ending. and yet some light has shed in the game to place this synth as workforce, pest control, surveillance, intelligence, experimental reason, and subjected to many other form of job not limited to research guinea pigs. in other words they're surrogate or replacement for human, despite it's image big bogeyman in reality institute lacking of human element, their member is mostly old scientist, who have undergo prolonged life via implant and stuff, this is made clear when you go to institute most of it's member is elderly person, yet the explanation provide as institute is works of 200 years of the previously CIT member their son and daughter dug deeper into the ground and finally institute is born.

from my perspective institute do what other faction do, in their case they commit atrocities by killing and kidnapping then replacing them with double, there is so many reason for this double that introduce in to the population, one suspected thing is before they can infiltrate larger group first they need to test their prototype, like it's in alpha state, and then wait and see if the cover is blown or not? it's simple truth and equation, even though it risk revealing their synth but to give another perfect distraction.

 

it goes like this, GEN 3 indistinguishable and perfectly assembles human so introduce 3 synth into unaffected population in this case 3 diff synth with 3 different memory, class and jobs, the probability equation state that chance of success will increased given number of tries, so even 1 is being rooted institute still have have 2 planted spy, given time another spy is exposed, leaving with one final perfectly adapted spy to their surrounding.

 

this is classic sleeper cells that have been employ worldwide now mostly by terrorist or as film goes maybe an EX USSR/Soviet spy "Salt" and surely given enough time working together this sleeper cells is very dangerous since it can blend completely into the infected population, it can achieve high rank in the government by simply by given enough time and credited just like everyone else. while activated could do serious crippling issue since the activator can sabotage without chance being noticed or simply by having their chain of command disrupted by missing key member if the sleeper cells achieve very important status.

so after the basic synth and organization around it let's go further in game!!!

institute is a scientific faction that means they're more using their logical rather than their emotion, it's simple fact that we must embrace first in order to understand what they do.mostly the fastest and the most efficient way to go from point A to B is by straight line yet by this straight line what kind of result they expect.

 

before sole survivor even began their journey they already meet institute, and the one who release them is the institute, Shaun honest and blatantly respond when you ask this particular question is because for experiment and since he's on elderly phase of his life he began asking "WHAT IF" more often. this is the starting point of the main quest.and then SS goes as far as hunting Kellogg and ended up killing him.

now lets talk about another quest when institute clashed with minuteman in quest "Pinned" the institute operative there clearly say that one institute realize their usefulness they will keep close eye on subject and even feeding him with materials, we will take this reference and apply it in the sole survivor role in the commonwealth.

 

most 1st play through player will tend to go back to their prewar home and follow quest markers to concord, in the end saving gaining their first settlers and means to start minuteman first step quest, which in the end will probably put player under Preston constant quest bombardments about settlements need help, that will lead to re-establishing the minuteman into one of the SS potential power. "this need to be mark as the SS already gain status in their usefulness."

 

given the mark that they're closely watched father should know this, also father know every other involvement SS do with other faction such like RR but RR is kinda needed to decode courser chip, but at this point SS very know little about institute nature and being spoon feed by all the Commonwealth hysteria while traveling doing minuteman quest also by RR crazy intention of saving synth and doing their quest with BOS too should they choose to assist danse.

 

I suppose there is reason why another forces is prematurely introduce while institute no matter what you do would be the second to last if you ignore BOS blimp after killing kellog and forceful pipboy message of listening ATF95 radio signal.

 

yet another question arise,

 

do you ever question the game maker why they already make clear that institute are to be frame the worst low life scumbags in the commonwealth? even before you meet them personally, one of the main intention is to create necessary evil in order to give player goals, or simply by trying to cloud your judgement about them, after whatever player do they need to find virgil in the glowing sea, whatever player response they will need to find railroad, and then making their own teleportation device by help of their optional faction.

 

here I am fully suited in fully modified X series power armor and armed with fatman and nukes from boss and missile launcher will bring justice to you FvCK*NG INSTITUTE b*stard!! you low life sc*mb*gs ^&*!&@$*!@ and so on, give back my shaun, but wait......... why it's it empty sneaking........ and there is father voice. hello....what wut? there is the welcoming party??? wtf is this, btw so i just remember my first play-trough it's so like this, but let's get back to issue.

 

upon meeting father there is no fight no anything he just want to talk, so in the end that boy is no shaun but the scumbags low life i want to kill is my son, the twist here is pretty interesting, if role-play speaking.

so in here we can see how synth was produce maintained and keeping them in short leash, not all synth was happy for their treatment but the coursers is never defect as far the game goes, there may be an escaped synth but no escaped coursers. so as far as the lore speaking the very tools that keeps synth in check is still maintained and fully operational, there also some with factory reset so there is a proper safety mechanism when they build their creation.

 

probably some player need them to wear explosive collars/device for total insurance against rebellion but that's enough proof to me they maintain their "slave" pretty well, father speak the truth as far as i see it. he also being honest, even though i don't like the reason this honest attitude give the institute a chance of proving them-self just like other faction.

player will learn whats Institute seek is total independence from outside reliance, they want to build their own berilium reactors for quest to expand further (this is what this eggheads true goal) if quest speaking.

 

they also try to be as friendly as possible, the tone father has when you starting the quest pinned was rather respectful to you, given the circumstances they can send coursers to slaughter whole minuteman why father give you chance to solve this matter without "firing any shots" since you're the general of the minuteman.

 

this is really put that institute is non compromise faction an issue, why they don't play nice before? simple answer for this egghead is the playing nice is just too bothersome since there is no effective way to do so, and why now? another simple answer is because now they can, they have you as general of minuteman there is a good chance that they might listen.

 

so need to be noted even though they're not really love people above they don't seek further destruction or involving nuking half of Boston all over again, however after completing their objective they need to show don't mess with us or we will mess with you attitude.

 

by using the player as message bearers and the game let you choose from subtle to aggressive lines, in the end of the line is killing the RR, it's need to be done to ensure the future of the institute and since RR wont compromise there is no other action possible, same as BOS since BOS came to commonwealth for one single goal, to destroy Institute.

 

it's when the showdown with BOS occurs that Synth really became an apparent tools to project power and means to invade, no longer it's restricted to raiding and scavenging tools, they literally throw 100% of their full force on BOS and assist SS unlike other faction, who let you do suicide mission againts the institute.

sorry for wall of text, when doing the argument it's necessary to assert proof of my perspective, so i can made solid arguments. as this is marked spoilers threat I wont mark any as spoiler.

Edited May 8, 2016 by virsia

[CyrusAmell]

 

so in here we can see how synth was produce maintained and keeping them in short leash, not all synth was happy for their treatment but the coursers is never defect as far the game goes, there may be an escaped synth but no escaped coursers. so as far as the lore speaking the very tools that keeps synth in check is still maintained and fully operational, there also some with factory reset so there is a proper safety mechanism when they build their creation, probably some player need them to wear explosive collars/device for total insurance against rebellion but that's enough proof to me they maintain their "slave" pretty well, father speak the truth as far as i see it. he also being honest, even though i don't like the reason this honest attitude give the institute a chance of proving them-self just like other faction do.

 

 

There is a confirmed instance of a Courser leaving the Institute, his unit designation was A3-21, also known as Harkness, and he appeared in Rivet City in Fallout 3. That said, this was ten years before the start of Fallout 4 so he could very well have been an early Courser Prototype. In fact, Harkness' unit designation, A3-21, implies that he may be among the first gen 3 synths every created. This makes sense because the only other possible Courser on the scene, designated Armitage who acts as Zimmer's bodyguard, is actually not that capable of a combatant and speaks in a normal tone of voice.

 

Coursers as we know them today speak with a monotone voice perhaps to establish a sort of mental conditioning. Additionally, Fallout 4 Coursers are some of the toughest combatants in the game. Without access to VATS mode, players would be hard-pressed to pin these guys down at earlier levels much less kill them in a straight up fight. So it stands to reason that since Fallout 3 the Courser program has been overhauled and fine-tuned. X6-88 is the staple example of this new breed of Coursers, and it is true that none among them have actually been noted to abandon their duties. This will only occur in the event the Institute is destroyed when some Coursers try to join raiders gangs (thus becoming Minutemen Radiant Quest targets), but at that point it can be argued that Institute has ceased to exist.

 

Also, I find that with large walls of texts you can make such arguments more navigable by using spoilers and indexing so as to organize your key points. And of course, never forget to make new paragraphs. After five sentences paragraphs become unwieldy and people will just not read them. Lastly, beware of run-on sentences and never be afraid to edit your postings if you see an error.

 

 

 

in the end that they seek is total independence from outside reliance they look to build their own berilium reactors for quest to expand further (this is what this eggheads true goal) if quest speaking,they also try to be as friendly as possible, the tone father has when you starting the quest pinned was rather respectful to you, given the circumstances they can send coursers to slaughter whole minuteman why father give you chance to solve this matter without "firing any shots" since you're the general of the minuteman, this is really put that institute is non compromise faction an issue, why they don't play nice before? simple answer for this egghead is the playing nice is just too bothersome since there is no effective way to do so, and why now? another simple answer is because now they can, they have you as general of minuteman there is a chance that they might listen so need to be noted even though they're not really love people above they don't seek further destruction or involving nuking half of Boston all over again, however after completing their objective they need to show don't mess with us or we will mess with you attitude, by using the player as message bearers and the game let you choose from subtle to aggressive lines, in the end of the line is killing the RR, it's need to be done to ensure the future of the institute and since RR wont compromise there is no other action possible, same as BOS since BOS came to commonwealth for one goal, to rekt Institute, it's when the showdown with BOS occurs that Synth really became an apparent tools to project power and means to invade, no longer it's restricted to raiding and scavenging tools, they literally throw 100% of their full force on BOS and assist SS unlike other faction, who let you do suicide mission againt's the institute.

 

 

It is actually quite introspective to consider that when presented with a chance at diplomacy the Institute actually opted for a peaceful resolution. Certainly, the need to ensure the safety of T.S. Wallace was a factor in trying to avoid violence (Quest Name: Pinned). The Minutemen at the scene were pathetically armed and out in the open, so I think it no great leap to assert that two Coursers could have handled them without breaking a sweat. And yet, sending the General of the Minutemen to tell the Minutemen to stand down actually qualifies as a novel idea in this game (stupidly enough). At no other point do any of the other factions attempt to use your clout as a General to their advantage - completely ignoring a valuable asset.

 

It is also interesting that although the Railroad and Minutemen endings are both considered "good" that they, along with the Brotherhood ending, all end up leaving a hellish nuclear crater in the middle of Boston. The few times I accidentally strayed near where the institute used to be in my Railroad game I almost died from radiation poisoning - and it is a vast area that is affected. We practically make a new Glowing Sea in the middle of Boston. That boiling stew of radiation we end up creating should actually be as much of a threat to the Commonwealth as the Institute ever was or could be, maybe more so because it is indiscriminate.

Edited May 8, 2016 by CyrusAmell

[virsia]

 

 

It is also interesting that although the Railroad and Minutemen endings are both considered "good" that they, along with the Brotherhood ending, all end up leaving a hellish nuclear crater in the middle of Boston. The few times I accidentally strayed near where the institute used to be in my Railroad game I almost died from radiation poisoning - and it is a vast area that is affected. We practically make a new Glowing Sea in the middle of Boston. That boiling stew of radiation we end up creating should actually be as much of a threat to the Commonwealth as the Institute ever was or could be, maybe more so because it is indiscriminate.

 

 

this is maybe most people miss there, and left me confused.

 

I see a lot of people willingly do railroad and act as if it's act of "good", to back synth free believe and in the end leaving more crater in the commonwealth, the Railroad quest also have little to non human benefits at all since it's focus on saving synth. this faction also by far the weakest, and already badly damaged it's literally on it's last leg after institute raid on switchboard. they also relies on prewar D.I.A cache and employ just about anything, as a weapon, from pipe weapons to Gauss rifle and minigun, but all is old prewar gadget/weapon beside few tinker tom's specialties.

 

the B.O.S ending also been note as one of the "best choice", they're using all means necessary to achieve their goals one proof of this is when you do the quest feeding the troops, the player are free to slaughter whole settlement for food and don't get any punishment from it, also the fact that they send Prydwen on intent of waging war without being outfitted with proper gear, this is made apparent when elder Maxson order player to secure cache of prewar fatman ammo on fort strong. this will also meaning that after 200 years B.O.S still relies on prewar supply to maintain their force, also their heavy reliance on power armor with no means to make fusion core.logically speaking that surely be fatal flaw in war of attrition,but the game didn't make this fact apparent.

 

Minuteman ending also rated "good" while their intention is good, the most advanced weapon they use is cranked laser, they're militia without proper gear and means to protect whole commonwealth, even though retaking castle is one way to make them into one of the notable faction they just don't have proper gear even with artillery combined, if by some miracle minuteman able to advance to adapt higher tier of tech they will became the enemy of the B.O.S who want to hoard all the TECH for them self. since minuteman also include nuking half of boston commonwealth is subjected by another deadly radiation, this is event should undo all the work player have done to build back the commonwealth, but it seems the game didn't put this into account same as B.O.S fatal flaw of not having proper supply as a flaw

Edited May 8, 2016 by virsia

[Moraelin]

I'd add that actually the escaped courser plot in FO3 makes it clear that they undergo periodic mind-wipes, precisely because they're expected to not be able to take it any more at some point. Also, as was mentioned, they can get mind-wiped and sent to the mines for the slightest imperfection. And as the note about M7-62 makes it clear, even showing the slightest sign of self awareness or awareness of one's own worth and value, as exemplified by M7-62 citing his accomplishments as qualifications for applying to the Courser program, are instantly disqualifying one from the program. Not that M7-62 was in any shape to be a Courser, mind you, but the fact that he seems to be too self-aware is explicitly cited as disqualifying him by itself anyway.

 

So the relative rarity of Courser defections can be simply explained by the fact that the Institute is MUCH more careful about its Coursers since the FO3 defection. It's been 10 years, so plenty of time for them to realize the need for caution.

 

Other than that, and the courser implants, though, I think the terminals make it amply clear that there's really nothing special about them. They just grade the synths produced, which (among other things) indicates a sizable error margin in the manufacturing process, and the top grade get to be trained and mentally conditioned and tested a lot, to see who makes the cut to be a Courser.

[CyrusAmell]

I'd add that actually the escaped courser plot in FO3 makes it clear that they undergo periodic mind-wipes, precisely because they're expected to not be able to take it any more at some point. Also, as was mentioned, they can get mind-wiped and sent to the mines for the slightest imperfection. And as the note about M7-62 makes it clear, even showing the slightest sign of self awareness or awareness of one's own worth and value, as exemplified by M7-62 citing his accomplishments as qualifications for applying to the Courser program, are instantly disqualifying one from the program. Not that M7-62 was in any shape to be a Courser, mind you, but the fact that he seems to be too self-aware is explicitly cited as disqualifying him by itself anyway.

 

So the relative rarity of Courser defections can be simply explained by the fact that the Institute is MUCH more careful about its Coursers since the FO3 defection. It's been 10 years, so plenty of time for them to realize the need for caution.

 

Other than that, and the courser implants, though, I think the terminals make it amply clear that there's really nothing special about them. They just grade the synths produced, which (among other things) indicates a sizable error margin in the manufacturing process, and the top grade get to be trained and mentally conditioned and tested a lot, to see who makes the cut to be a Courser.

 

Speaking of M7-62 (Mayor McDonough) did they replace the original person before or after he became Mayor of Diamond City? If after then the Institute captured and tortured a horrible person who ran on a platform to exile ghouls from the city. If before, then they had their synth run on a platform to exile ghouls and are responsible in part for their suffering. Testimony from Hancock might lead us to believe it was before, but Alana Secord's words might lead us to believe that they only picked up the original McDonough after he became Mayor.

 

I think Secord's version makes sense because it would be easier to replace any Mayor than to invest in a single candidate that has to run for election.

 

On the topic of Alana Secord's views on self-awareness, it is a given that although many view her as a better alternative than Justin Ayo she is still of the same camp and is charged with repressing synths as a member of the SRB. Though I do not know if actual Coursers get periodic mind-wipes, that would only be if they became unfit for duty. Otherwise they would be wasting a great deal of invested combat training and would have to continuously retrain new Coursers.

 

As for X4-72, the synth with the eye problem, the only evidence we have that he was a Courser was that it was Justin Ayo that submitted the complaint on his condition. Which is a valid enough reason to believe such. And it does show a callous disregard by the Institute for loyalty shown by Courser units. Again, one of many flaws the Institute suffers at present. It would have been interesting if Justin Ayo viewed X4-72's decommission as a personal slight against him by another Department who did not opt to try and save the unit's current operational status.

 

 

 

Other than that, and the courser implants, though, I think the terminals make it amply clear that there's really nothing special about them. They just grade the synths produced, which (among other things) indicates a sizable error margin in the manufacturing process, and the top grade get to be trained and mentally conditioned and tested a lot, to see who makes the cut to be a Courser.

 

Coursers receive extensive combat training and mental conditioning, although there are disputes as to whether they receive additional augmentations. Coursers are still Gen 3 Synths and can be re-purposed if they fail in their duties for things Gen 3 Synths would normally do. However, I did not know they actually graded synths as they were produced. That is interesting to know - where is this listed?

 

Edited May 8, 2016 by CyrusAmell

[Moraelin]

1. No idea when they replaced him. I didn't find any references to that on the terminals. Only to his asking to be transferred to Courser training when the heat got too much for him in Diamond City. But apparently they'd rather have him dead.

 

Which basically fits the same image of their disregard for a synth's loyal service, way I see it. I mean, the dude could have run to the railroad or whatnot, when things got tough, but he still WANTS to serve the Institute. But ironically the very request showed that he has too much self-awareness, so they'd rather have him "decomissioned in the field" when he invariably gets discovered as a synth.

 

2. As for the training and conditioning, that's not what I meant by their being not special. Merely that they're not separately produced. Before the training and conditioning and implants, it's just another synth. There is no different brain in them that couldn't run away or anything. Is all I'm saying.

 

3. The grading isn't on a terminal, but you can have Ayo spell it out for you, if you enquire during the initial meet-and-greet with the department heads.

 

Justin Ayo: "The SRB constantly monitors our gen-3 synth population, looking for specific traits. Those who show tenacity, fearlessness and independence undergo a rigorous training regimen. We teach them armed and unarmed combat, investigative techniques, psychology and mechanical skills. Those who pass a final evaluation become Coursers. The rest have their memories wiped and return to their former duties."

Spells it out pretty clear, I would say.