Mod Picker: The Fearsome Juggernaut

[sunshinenbrick]

 

 

No, I did not and I sure as hell do not intend to. It would be helpful if somebody could bullet point the concerns of mod authors because I have yet to see one that is actually valid.

 

The whole paid modding thing happened months ago as far as I know and even if there were still paid mods on Steam I don't understand how that would relate to this discussion in any way. How much people have to lose and whether they treat modding as a hobby or a business simply isn't relevant to whether or not Mod Picker could be a useful resource for mod users, at least as far as I can see. And it's all utterly moot in any event because paid mods ended up not happening.

 

I just pointed them out to you a couple of posts ago. If you are unwilling to read the stuff so as to see things for yourself, then I'm afraid that is part of the problem...

 

Paid mods is more than likely returning, which is yet another reason why modders are watching Bethesda carefully to see what they do. Mod Picker could potentially increase the work load for authors who are already overworked, exhausted and most likely not swimming in cash either. Again a lot of this is dicussed in the threads I linked.

 

 

Sorry, I don't see where you bullet pointed the mod authors concerns. I saw a long post from you talking about paid modding, some original press release that was not cited, and wailing about how kids these days don't know how to properly replace the transmission on a '63 Chevy so the whole world is going to hell in a handbasket. I did not see one valid concern that was on-topic.

 

I do not understand how Mod Picker increases the workload of modders if paid mods return. Please at least connect these dots for me. Though I again I will reiterate that this seems like such a minor concern it's safe to say that Mod Picker is mostly approved of by mod authors, because being concerned that the site might increase your workload in the event of paid mods hypothetically returning is even less of serious concern than worrying that the percentage of users who upvote a comment in order for it to become a permanent part of the page might need to be tweaked.

 

 

My utmost apologies for not catering to compiling and sumarising a 50 page document into nice bite size chunks for you. I sometimes forget that I am not at work and am not being paid £20 an hour... silly me.

 

To break it down then it goes like this.

 

Mod 'user' wants such and such a game in such and such a way --> Mod Picker says 'hey look at all these mods that are easy for you to use' --> 'User' cannot be bothered to read 50 page tutorials on how to make things work properly --> Modder is then forced to endlessly work to provide for an increasingly clueless user base.

[JimboUK]

 

 

Now this DOES bring into question as to why 'users' are feeling that they cannot get this information or that it is wrong. Well in some respects I partly blame the automation of the process already. People are not learning manual mod building/installing and the more fundamental practices are being eroded.

 

A lack of knowledge among users is a huge problem, it's not that people are stupid it's that they don't have to learn so don't. No only are clueless users a pain for authors but they're also missing out on so much, with a basic understanding of how stuff works a user can tweak mods to the own liking, you don't to look for or ask for mods that do exactly what you want, you only need to find something that roughly does it.

[AraFox]

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not interested in joining in on personal assaults or snarky back-and-forth thinly disguised as a "debate". Having said that:

 

 

Modder is then forced to endlessly work to provide for an increasingly clueless user base.

 

 

I don't understand this concept. Who is forcing you? If a user can't figure out how to implement your mod, and they go grab their virtual pitchfork and torch and leave disparaging comments on some third party site, how is that any different from here? Just this morning I saw a user post on a mod page that no one should ever download the mod because it will forever break all the things Skyrim (or something equally silly).

 

I'm not taking a shot at anyone, I'm genuinely curious as to why you feel that this can force a higher workload on an author. What exactly is your obligation as a mod author? To fix things that are broken in your work, sure. To make using the mod dummy proof so some third party site will give you a thumb's up? Not in my opinion.

 

Maybe I'm just over simplifying. I am just a simple country girl after all, and will probably never stray far from what works for me - Nexus Mods.

[lofgren]

 

 

 

No, I did not and I sure as hell do not intend to. It would be helpful if somebody could bullet point the concerns of mod authors because I have yet to see one that is actually valid.

 

The whole paid modding thing happened months ago as far as I know and even if there were still paid mods on Steam I don't understand how that would relate to this discussion in any way. How much people have to lose and whether they treat modding as a hobby or a business simply isn't relevant to whether or not Mod Picker could be a useful resource for mod users, at least as far as I can see. And it's all utterly moot in any event because paid mods ended up not happening.

 

I just pointed them out to you a couple of posts ago. If you are unwilling to read the stuff so as to see things for yourself, then I'm afraid that is part of the problem...

 

Paid mods is more than likely returning, which is yet another reason why modders are watching Bethesda carefully to see what they do. Mod Picker could potentially increase the work load for authors who are already overworked, exhausted and most likely not swimming in cash either. Again a lot of this is dicussed in the threads I linked.

 

 

Sorry, I don't see where you bullet pointed the mod authors concerns. I saw a long post from you talking about paid modding, some original press release that was not cited, and wailing about how kids these days don't know how to properly replace the transmission on a '63 Chevy so the whole world is going to hell in a handbasket. I did not see one valid concern that was on-topic.

 

I do not understand how Mod Picker increases the workload of modders if paid mods return. Please at least connect these dots for me. Though I again I will reiterate that this seems like such a minor concern it's safe to say that Mod Picker is mostly approved of by mod authors, because being concerned that the site might increase your workload in the event of paid mods hypothetically returning is even less of serious concern than worrying that the percentage of users who upvote a comment in order for it to become a permanent part of the page might need to be tweaked.

 

 

My utmost apologies for not catering to compiling and sumarising a 50 page document into nice bite size chunks for you. I sometimes forget that I am not at work and am not being paid £20 an hour... silly me.

 

To break it down then it goes like this.

 

Mod 'user' wants such and such a game in such and such a way --> Mod Picker says 'hey look at all these mods that are easy for you to use' --> 'User' cannot be bothered to read 50 page tutorials on how to make things work properly --> Modder is then forced to endlessly work to provide for an increasingly clueless user base.

 

 

No need to apologize. Just don't claim that you already did it. If you don't claim that you already did something you didn't do then there's no need for me to point out that you actually did not do it.

 

As for your last paragraph, I do not understand it at all. Users are generally unwilling to read 50 page tutorials on how to make things work properly for a mod. I sure as hell am not willing to. Hell I wouldn't read a 50 page tutorial on almost anything. Maybe some cutting edge tech in the lab. Maybe.

 

It seems that your concern comes from the idea that Mod Picker will make users "increasingly clueless." How exactly do you feel that Mod Picker will do this, and, again, what does this have to do with paid mods?

Edited April 25, 2016 by lofgren

[sunshinenbrick]

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not interested in joining in on personal assaults or snarky back-and-forth thinly disguised as a "debate". Having said that:

 

 

Modder is then forced to endlessly work to provide for an increasingly clueless user base.

 

 

I don't understand this concept. Who is forcing you? If a user can't figure out how to implement your mod, and they go grab their virtual pitchfork and torch and leave disparaging comments on some third party site, how is that any different from here? Just this morning I saw a user post on a mod page that no one should ever download the mod because it will forever break all the things Skyrim (or something equally silly).

 

I'm not taking a shot at anyone, I'm genuinely curious as to why you feel that this can force a higher workload on an author. What exactly is your obligation as a mod author? To fix things that are broken in your work, sure. To make using the mod dummy proof so some third party site will give you a thumb's up? Not in my opinion.

 

Maybe I'm just over simplifying. I am just a simple country girl after all, and will probably never stray far from what works for me - Nexus Mods.

 

Because this is the platform that the author chooses to provide support from. If the main point of contact is then moved the author has to provide supprt both there and here.

 

There is no obligation as such but the risk of having bad reviews 'officially' associated with you just because people can't use the mod, expect too much or maybe the modder is ill or working to pay the bills. This is a whole additional level of scrutiny and pressure on people who are mostly just doing it for fun and as a past-time.

 

Have a review site by all means but don't mix it in with compatibility issues (which Bethesda has something to answer for as well) and don't officially associate it with the author unless they choose to do so. This is all we are asking. But many of these things are not being guaranteed by the Mod Picker team. In fact they have at times been very aggressive with our voicing of concerns, practically saying 'shut up, and take it anyway'. Not a great way to improve cohesion.

 

As we have clarified, things can be bad already but if the conversation is both moved away from the author and if there is not enough focus on the user's responsibility in the process then it very easily will just make the whole situation worse.

 

I am in all favour of having a 'learn to mod' platform, but as I have said that is not what we have been implied it would be like, until very recently. Even then it all seems very rushed and there are still massive questions, and practicalities that need to be ironed out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, I did not and I sure as hell do not intend to. It would be helpful if somebody could bullet point the concerns of mod authors because I have yet to see one that is actually valid.

 

The whole paid modding thing happened months ago as far as I know and even if there were still paid mods on Steam I don't understand how that would relate to this discussion in any way. How much people have to lose and whether they treat modding as a hobby or a business simply isn't relevant to whether or not Mod Picker could be a useful resource for mod users, at least as far as I can see. And it's all utterly moot in any event because paid mods ended up not happening.

 

I just pointed them out to you a couple of posts ago. If you are unwilling to read the stuff so as to see things for yourself, then I'm afraid that is part of the problem...

 

Paid mods is more than likely returning, which is yet another reason why modders are watching Bethesda carefully to see what they do. Mod Picker could potentially increase the work load for authors who are already overworked, exhausted and most likely not swimming in cash either. Again a lot of this is dicussed in the threads I linked.

 

 

Sorry, I don't see where you bullet pointed the mod authors concerns. I saw a long post from you talking about paid modding, some original press release that was not cited, and wailing about how kids these days don't know how to properly replace the transmission on a '63 Chevy so the whole world is going to hell in a handbasket. I did not see one valid concern that was on-topic.

 

I do not understand how Mod Picker increases the workload of modders if paid mods return. Please at least connect these dots for me. Though I again I will reiterate that this seems like such a minor concern it's safe to say that Mod Picker is mostly approved of by mod authors, because being concerned that the site might increase your workload in the event of paid mods hypothetically returning is even less of serious concern than worrying that the percentage of users who upvote a comment in order for it to become a permanent part of the page might need to be tweaked.

 

 

My utmost apologies for not catering to compiling and sumarising a 50 page document into nice bite size chunks for you. I sometimes forget that I am not at work and am not being paid £20 an hour... silly me.

 

To break it down then it goes like this.

 

Mod 'user' wants such and such a game in such and such a way --> Mod Picker says 'hey look at all these mods that are easy for you to use' --> 'User' cannot be bothered to read 50 page tutorials on how to make things work properly --> Modder is then forced to endlessly work to provide for an increasingly clueless user base.

 

 

No need to apologize. Just don't claim that you already did it. If you don't claim that you already did something you didn't do then there's no need for me to point out that you actually did not do it.

 

As for your last paragraph, I do not understand it at all. Users are generally unwilling to read 50 page tutorials on how to make things work properly for a mod. I sure as hell am not willing to. Hell I wouldn't read a 50 page tutorial on almost anything. Maybe some cutting edge tech in the lab. Maybe.

 

It seems that your concern comes from the idea that Mod Picker will make users "increasingly clueless." How exactly do you feel that Mod Picker will do this, and, again, what does this have to do with paid mods?

 

 

I didn't use bullet points but I did go some way to try and summarise many of the points being made. Again, my apologies.

 

Why are you not willing to learn how to get mods working together? Out of curiosity? With all the tools and load sorters and what not it is a pretty straight forward process already anyway. If no body would have bothered to read anything we would still be stuck where things were 15 years ago.

 

I have explained twice now, at least here, that the way Mod Picker was advertised was as an 'automated process for users' to install different mods. It made no indication of actually showing users how things work nor how to fix problems if they had any. It was a 'click to play' system, and that automation and easy to use environment has to be made possible by someone. And it takes a lot of work, with very little in return except the wants of users.

 

I believe, and many others here do to, that users should not be seen, and are not, people who cannot do things. In a way Mod Picker just assumes that they can't, and never will.

 

Paid mods is a conjunctive issue that has an impact on many areas of the community/industry that is sometimes subtle but equally profound. I have already touched upon a number of those subjects here already and provided links to things that go into it. But as it seems to not be making and headway then I suppose we can omit the need to go there anymore, for now.

[lofgren]

Why are you not willing to learn how to get mods working together? Out of curiosity? With all the tools and load sorters and what not it is a pretty straight forward process already anyway. If no body would have bothered to read anything we would still be stuck where things were 15 years ago.

I'm certainly willing to do some work, but I have been modding for 15 years now and I have never not once had to read "50+ pages" to install many mods together let alone one mod. My car's manual is 50+ pages and I didn't even have to read my way all the way through it before I started the car and drove off in it for the first time.

 

But I see what you are saying, I think. Users tend to want to learn and do the minimum possible to get whatever they want to use up and running. This is true in every area of life. And ideally, shouldn't users have to do almost nothing to install a mod? Those 15 years of modding have resulted in ever-increasing levels of automation, from Wrye Mash to Mod Organizer, to the SkyUI MCM. The number of mods with complex install instructions is positively minimal compared to number with simple 1-2 click download and installation. I think it takes 3 clicks to get a mod downloaded and running in MO?

 

I agree that a certain amount of involvement may be expected from the end user, but in my opinion it should be as minimal as possible. If a user isn't willing to read 50+ pages in order to get a mod running and the mod maker isn't able or willing to simplify the process, then the user will have to forego that mod. Note that this is exactly the same situation as today, and remains exactly equally true whether the user found the mod through mod picker, Skyrim GEMS, a YouTube video, or STEP.

 

I have explained twice now, at least here, that the way Mod Picker was advertised was as an 'automated process for users' to install different mods. It made no indication of actually showing users how things work nor how to fix problems if they had any. It was a 'click to play' system, and that automation and easy to use environment has to be made possible by someone. And it takes a lot of work, with very little in return except the wants of users.

You have explained it but you have not demonstrated it. If you could just cite this advertisement so I could see for myself.

 

Everything else here is pure speculation. An automated process for users sounds awesome. Sign me up. I didn't *censored* and moan about SKSE or MCM when those tools came along and people started expecting more from their mods, I'm not going to complain about something that sounds like it will make everybody's life easier.

 

Just imagine if that "easy to use environment" was easier to use than writing a 50+ page installation manual? AND since it is automated and users no longer have to read a 50+ installation manual, you get fewer complaints and complications down the line! There is a reason almost every complex mod on the Nexus recommends using a mod manager over manual installation, and it's because conforming to the mod manager's requirements and relying on the tool is far more efficient than ignoring those requirements and relying on the users.

 

I believe, and many others here do to, that users should not be seen, and are not, people who cannot do things. In a way Mod Picker just assumes that they can't, and never will.

This is gibberish.

 

 

Paid mods is a conjunctive issue that has an impact on many areas of the community/industry that is sometimes subtle but equally profound. I have already touched upon a number of those subjects here already and provided links to things that go into it. But as it seems to not be making and headway then I suppose we can omit the need to go there anymore, for now.

I'm not willing to read 50+ pages of off-topic discussion. Please link to at least one post that explains the relationship between mod picker and paid mods, or explain it yourself. Otherwise I really have no choice but to ignore this claim.

Edited April 25, 2016 by lofgren

[sunshinenbrick]

 

Why are you not willing to learn how to get mods working together? Out of curiosity? With all the tools and load sorters and what not it is a pretty straight forward process already anyway. If no body would have bothered to read anything we would still be stuck where things were 15 years ago.

I'm certainly willing to do some work, but I have been modding for 15 years now and I have never not once had to read "50+ pages" to install many mods together let alone one mod. My car's manual is 50+ pages and I didn't even have to read my way all the way through it before I started the car and drove off in it for the first time.

 

But I see what you are saying, I think. Users tend to want to learn and do the minimum possible to get whatever they want to use up and running. This is true in every area of life. And ideally, shouldn't users have to do almost nothing to install a mod? Those 15 years of modding have resulted in ever-increasing levels of automation, from Wrye Mash to Mod Organizer, to the SkyUI MCM. The number of mods with complex install instructions is positively minimal compared to number with simple 1-2 click download and installation. I think it takes 3 clicks to get a mod downloaded and running in MO?

 

I agree that a certain amount of involvement may be expected from the end user, but in my opinion it should be as minimal as possible. If a user isn't willing to read 50+ pages in order to get a mod running and the mod maker isn't able or willing to simplify the process, then the user will have to forego that mod. Note that this is exactly the same situation as today, and remains exactly equally true whether the user found the mod through mod picker, Skyrim GEMS, a YouTube video, or STEP.

 

I have explained twice now, at least here, that the way Mod Picker was advertised was as an 'automated process for users' to install different mods. It made no indication of actually showing users how things work nor how to fix problems if they had any. It was a 'click to play' system, and that automation and easy to use environment has to be made possible by someone. And it takes a lot of work, with very little in return except the wants of users.

You have explained it but you have not demonstrated it. If you could just cite this advertisement so I could see for myself.

 

Everything else here is pure speculation. An automated process for users sounds awesome. Sign me up. I didn't *censored* and moan about SKSE or MCM when those tools came along and people started expecting more from their mods, I'm not going to complain about something that sounds like it will make everybody's life easier.

 

Just imagine if that "easy to use environment" was easier to use than writing a 50+ page installation manual? AND since it is automated and users no longer have to read a 50+ installation manual, you get fewer complaints and complications down the line! There is a reason almost every complex mod on the Nexus recommends using a mod manager over manual installation, and it's because conforming to the mod manager's requirements and relying on the tool is far more efficient than ignoring those requirements and relying on the users.

 

I believe, and many others here do to, that users should not be seen, and are not, people who cannot do things. In a way Mod Picker just assumes that they can't, and never will.

This is gibberish.

 

 

Paid mods is a conjunctive issue that has an impact on many areas of the community/industry that is sometimes subtle but equally profound. I have already touched upon a number of those subjects here already and provided links to things that go into it. But as it seems to not be making and headway then I suppose we can omit the need to go there anymore, for now.

I'm not willing to read 50+ pages of off-topic discussion. Please link to at least one post that explains the relationship between mod picker and paid mods, or explain it yourself. Otherwise I really have no choice but to ignore this claim.

 

 

50 pages is an aggregate number and more in reference to the unwillingness to read the discussion where all of this has already taken place. You can see myself actually being one of the 'few' vocal members of that discussion trying to point out and develop the positive aspects of the system and how it could work for everyone. Link.

 

I am tired after some 72 hours of little sleep and constant posting/mailing to try and calm both sides of this debate so my apologies for not combing through 15 or so threads trying to find quotes to answer all these questions. Especially when I am told they are 'gibberish' and not likely to be read anyway.

 

True a lot of this is speculation, and this is true on all sides of the argument. There has not even been any kind of public beta yet of such a huge project. I have spoke with various members of the team on numerous occasions and I know how keen they seem to be on making this project right and to turn it into something that people can really use without causing issues with a community undergoing some big changes, both from the developer side and the Nexus site redesign itself.

 

It is somewhat possible that if we insist on also considering paid mods then it is the console market where the mechanics of such an organisation of information would become very advantagous, if not necessary. There are lots of cooks in this kitchen...

[lofgren]

I am tired after some 72 hours of little sleep and constant posting/mailing to try and calm both sides of this debate so my apologies for not combing through 15 or so threads trying to find quotes to answer all these questions. Especially when I am told they are 'gibberish' and not likely to be read anyway.

Come now. You know that was gibberish. Maybe get some sleep. When you wake up, reread the paragraph I called gibberish. You'll see it's pretty much nonsense.

 

True a lot of this is speculation, and this is true on all sides of the argument.

It's not as true for the side of the argument that has pointed out that there already exist thousands of sites that perform a similar function for other niches. Comparisons to PCPartPicker, Amazon, and Yelp have already been made. The internet has done very well with the wiki-style of crowd sourcing. You can't really be surprised that it's come to modding finally.

Edited April 25, 2016 by lofgren

[sunshinenbrick]

 

I am tired after some 72 hours of little sleep and constant posting/mailing to try and calm both sides of this debate so my apologies for not combing through 15 or so threads trying to find quotes to answer all these questions. Especially when I am told they are 'gibberish' and not likely to be read anyway.

Come now. You know that was gibberish. Maybe get some sleep. When you wake up, reread the paragraph I called gibberish. You'll see it's pretty much nonsense.

 

True a lot of this is speculation, and this is true on all sides of the argument.

It's not as true for the side of the argument that has pointed out that there already exist thousands of sites that perform a similar function for other niches. Comparisons to PCPartPicker, Amazon, and Yelp have already been made. The internet has done very well with the wiki-style of crowd sourcing. You can't really be surprised that it's come to modding finally.

 

 

You do realise that modders are not paid right? The people at PCParts, Amazon etc etc are.

 

As for the other comment, I'm afraid I just don't understand what you are saying. :confused:

[lofgren]

My car's manual is 50+ pages and I didn't even have to read my way all the way through it…

I'm not willing to read 50+ pages…

I'm seeing a pattern here. You think that people should have your level of expertise before they receive any benefits that you didn't have. You've read 50 pages of off-topic discussion, so I should read 50 pages of off-topic discussion before I can comment on the matter. You've read 50 pages of installation manuals, so you think all users should have to read 50 pages of instruction manuals. You've read the initial press release/advertisement and had your opinion of Mod Picker formed by it, so you think I should also form my opinion around this initial release even though I never had those misconceptions.

 

 

You do realise that modders are not paid right? The people at PCParts Amazon etc etc are.

 

You have yet to demonstrate the relevance of this. So what? We're still people offering goods and services. We're just offering them for free and with no guaranteed support.

 

As for the other comment, I'm afraid I just don't understand what you are saying. :confused:

That's because you're tired. Trust me, that paragraph was complete nonsense.