Would Those Who Oppose Paid Modding Have an Issue With it Being Limited to Consoles?

[RustyXXL]

The SkyUI team repeatedly denied request of overhauling the craftingmenu over the years. They stated they had no interest in doing so. These new crafting menus were released for free to the comunity in the course of the so called paid modding "debacle" where the "community" really showed its face. They also stated their intend that they would release every paid version of SkyUI after a couple of month of paid only for free on the nexus.

 

Cheskos Camping mod/framework got released some time before the paid mods, but it was a result of him developing new versions of his mods for paid modding and got released for free to the nexus community.

 

Just 2 examples that really happened how the free modding "community" directly profited from paid modding by exactly those modders they decided to turn on.

[Royhr]

Well my biggest concern as far as paying for a mod beit PC or console is that we live in a world of scammers at every turn. I'd really be concerned that the modder for a paid for mod would continue to offer support for their mod. Especially keeping a mod updated and compatible for patches to the game itself or to support new released DLCs. Not to mention just fixes to the mod itself once it went live.

 

Maybe I'm just being naive or narrowminded but I thought that modding was supposed to be a fun hobby and not about making a buck? Yes I fully understand that some modders indeed do spend a lot of hours/days/weeks hell even months developing and updating their mods. But I thought that they did it because it was fun and a challenge in doing so? Now I'm not opposed to the current system of voluntary paypal type donations if a mod or better yet the modder meets my expectations. Just like I will always support a site like here at Nexus if I feel it warrants support.

[tartarsauce2]

eh, false hope leads people to do things they otherwise wouldn't sometimes
"A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon." - "a modder will work long and hard for the possibility of paid mods being a thing."
-Napoleon Bonaparte

really screwed them over but this is what happens when you don't think things through all the way to the end when initiating largescale changes to a situation - the validity of the idea at large being irrelevant to this part, but not thinking things through makes an otherwise valid theoretical conceptual idea invalid in reality
[insert bush mission accomplished aircraft carrier picture here]

the fact that we're posting is evidence of a community, so I don't understand this "community" quotations thing, and it was a debacle, not a "debacle"
debacle- a sudden and ignominious failure; a fiasco.
fiasco- a thing that is a complete failure, especially in a ludicrous or humiliating way.

blindly charging at gold rushes leads to disappointment, my family history includes two people who did a lot of hard dangerous work for a long time to get famous, both pioneering in canada, one of them actually doing gold rush stuff before returning from it nearly starving, gold rushes ain't good, blindly rushing off to do large complicated things as if they're everyday chores ain't good - the other one was doing linguistics and cultural/anthropological work essentially and returned to england and got famous for it - in other words the framework for that market was already set up via the intellectual environment, etc *and* it was about the time the fur trade was expanding, the company he was working for in question had particular interest in being able to talk to people from those regions for business reasons - so interests naturally aligned, there's no sense in being bitter about perceived opportunities that don't actually exist, that's an error on the would-be opportunist's part not others')

and yea, they're famous, and he kind of swindled newcomers in a sense lol, and this all has some amount of bearing on this whole topic, pioneering things in already existing communities takes a lot, and I mean a lot of work and hobbyists are not liable to fall sucker to snake oil they care too much and know too much - anyways this quotes excerpt is in regard to one (I've linked both family members though) of my family and his relation with one of the poor suckers intent on "gold rush" get rich quick style stuff - who recovered and realized it's not quite that easy and THEN succeeded

The Livingston farm prospered. Becoming an example of the region’s agricultural potential, it was shown to visiting notables such as the Marquess of Lorne [Campbell*] and Alexander Mackenzie, and was used in publicity to attract prospective settlers. In the late 1860s Livingston had already begun to pioneer the agricultural development of the west by bringing the first pigs into the Saskatchewan country. In 1882 he brought the first threshing machine into the region, the following year he introduced the first binder, and in 1886 he imported 350 fruit trees from Minnesota. Livingston is also credited with pioneering the cultivation of different types of grass and the raising of cattle.

To some degree Mackenzie and the Neils had fallen victim to roseate talk about the employability and high wages of stonemasons in the New World. Though Mackenzie was offered a job at Montreal, he and the Neils chose to move on to Kingston, where, it was rumoured, better pay was available. This mistaken notion, and rock that was too hard for his tools, inadvertently set the footings for Mackenzie’s business career as a general builder and building contractor. His ability to learn new skills quickly and his firm, direct way of handling workers rapidly enhanced his reputation. Over the next several years he served as a foreman or contractor on major canal and building sites in Kingston,

http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/livingston_samuel_henry_harkwood_12E.html
http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/howse_joseph_8E.html

Edited April 28, 2016 by tartarsauce2

[RustyXXL]

I put the community in quotetion mark, because only a small percentage of modders and users alike use these forums. The vast majority of users come, leech their mods and don't even bother coming back for any other reasons than when something goes wrong, they want something done or there are updates etc. Go to any mod you like and compare the amount of downloads to the number of endorsements. Even for the most successful mods the numbers are laughable.

To further indicate that, you can greatly increase your chances to get hotfiles, by putting out lots and lots of updates in the relevant timespan, with the feature enabled to remind users to endorse.

I'm not the only one who sais that, DDProductions stated that in one of his videos.

Same is true for donations, but here the numbers are even worse.

Only a very small percentage of this "community" actually participates in this "community" and most of those that interact do so mostly to complain.

 

And I put the debacle in quotation marks because the real debacle was how the users bashed some of the modders, that actually tried the paid modding system, instead of just denying it from the start, delivering additional free content, that never would have happened, if they wouldn't have been brought back to some of those mods via the prospect of getting paid for it.

 

I stated it before, and I repeat it again. Yes, I do mod because I like doing it, and when I feel like it, I sometimes even listen to what the users want. But most of the time I just do what I want, when I want, or just do nothing for whatever reasons I may have. If I feel like it, I may, or may not inform the users of my plans, but on the greater scale I just do what I want, because it's just a hobby anyway.

Now putting some money on the table changes things quite drastically. Now I have an incentive to actually deliver something a lot of people are interested in, instead of just doing what I want. I still do modding, my hobby, but I'm much more inclined to make something that I can release, instead just for myself, and listen to user requests etc to make my mod more successful. Maybe I can get some money back for the hundrets of € I spent, making my hobby even possible, or allow me to improve my computer further to be able to do even more things.

Because donations are all fine and dandy, and I really appreciate them and the thought behind them. But in the end the amount that you get from donations in many cases is just enough to buy you an extra pizza every month or three. Something that is really nice, and I'm happy about that, but in the greater scale and compared to the amount of work I put in it's not worth changing anything about your behavior.

[tartarsauce2]

then I think it's safe to say that as a community we really don't need paid modding and we're fine with a hobbyist intention, the great power of intrinsically driven hobbyist communities is that even if they wouldn't have made it someone else would've *because they can* or they got sick of waiting for someone else to do it - we can do without prima donnas even if they do better work occasionally than the "average scrub"

there's a reason that original anonymous "delivered" so often, and as for community, it exists, it exists throughout various websites, not just this one
that kind of attitude still exists, even if the formal designation has been overrun with "I made pun meme I am funny, please clap" types of folks

similarly, intrinsically driven quality production still exists despite the lame copycatting of lesser types, this all ties into what I said about reputation being king
your contempt for the community, in this case so many who download but don't rate or donate etc, who ARE in fact buyers of bethesda's stuff, partially because there is access to mods, doesn't do it service, the free mods stuff is out there, if you don't like it don't make it, by this point it's become a free service to bethesda in a sense - as a way to support the system as a whole, maintenance, upkeep, whatever keeps the whole thing going
if it becomes untenable people will stop modding, but don't expect others to make way for your dream career move when there's no reason to

welcome to street busking, online edition, pander for patrimony, but offer an ugly face and you're never getting anywhere - this isn't the secure employment world here
stop acting like the world owes you a job, you don't owe them service either
Fiat voluntas tua means "Thy will be done." It is a quote from the Lord's prayer.

A Canticle for Leibowitz is a post-apocalyptic science fiction novel by American writer Walter M. Miller, Jr., first published in 1960. Set in a Catholic monastery in the desert of the Southwestern United States after a devastating nuclear war, the story spans thousands of years as civilization rebuilds itself.

2.2 "Fiat Homo" (Let There Be Man)

2.3 "Fiat Lux" (Let There Be Light)

2.4 "Fiat Voluntas Tua" (Let Thy Will Be Done)

and remember just how much of the music in game is common domain while you're at it
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/3mtmao/a_canticle_for_leibowitz_the_inspiration_for_the/

Edited April 28, 2016 by tartarsauce2

[RustyXXL]

Yeah, whatever man...keep preaching your religion, but please stop impeding on mine.

[tartarsauce2]

I think you have that backwards, you're trying to change what already exists and works without sufficient justification (I hear the arguments about higher quality but given what we know and see the math just doesn't add up to being better value for the increased cost to the community at large or dynamic)
I've already provided some ideas on how to go forwards with a sort of monetization that wouldn't necessarily backfire as well - so insinuations towards a religious disposition don't work with me
I'm more into culture at large and religion is just a part of that

and given that my family history has some *pretty well off members* and I'm not doing so well, because I used to share your attitude, and found myself lacking in work ethic until I changed my considerations around... well I found this quote is helpful - that said the kinds of things I was working under/for weren't inspiring, so I found something that was that, something intrinsically rewarding and modestly secure financially - but based on the premise that work ethic yields the potential for rewards, not the promise
treat them right or somebody else will, never think you're irreplaceable

"As one might expect, hubris is not necessarily associated with high self-esteem but with highly fluctuating or variable self-esteem, and a gap between inflated self perception and a more modest reality.
Hubris is usually perceived as a characteristic of an individual rather than a group, although the group the offender belongs to may unintentionally suffer consequences from the wrongful act. Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one's own competence, accomplishments or capabilities."

Edited April 28, 2016 by tartarsauce2

[agent00228]

I'll pay if the content is really good and plays nice with other mods. I would have paid $5 for Frostfall in Skyrim for example. If prices are ridiculous though, I'll have to stick to free stuff. Remember Alton, IL for F3? It was a really good quest mod, but the voices were a little janky at times as well as the world space. It wasn't 100% polished content I'd shell out a lot of money on. Maybe $5. If people are asking for $15 with that level of content I could see how it could hurt the modding community. Now if we see super polished fleshed out mods with big name modders working together and they advertise it right, then I say shut up and take my money. Modders should make money off of their hardwork, but not succumb to greed. Part of the beauty of this mod community we've all had the privilege of experiencing is it is free. It's a compilation of independent works not limited by someones wallet allowing these great ideas to grow as big as the ambition of modders. I believe keeping them free would continue to boost the level of ambition and mod count as we've seen since Fallout 3. Each Bethesda game gets crazier with the mods and gives Todd and his team an idea of what works and doesn't work for their games. If consoles have to pay though and PC users don't, that would be interesting. Though the mods console users pay for would need to live up to a certain standard to justify payment. I just hope mods will continue to stay free for the most part. It's a good way for an aspiring game maker to build a resume.

[RustyXXL]

I think you have that backwards, you're trying to change what already exists and works without sufficient justification (I hear the arguments about higher quality but given what we know and see the math just doesn't add up to being better value for the increased cost to the community at large or dynamic)

I've already provided some ideas on how to go forwards with a sort of monetization that wouldn't necessarily backfire as well - so insinuations towards a religious disposition don't work with me

I'm more into culture at large and religion is just a part of that

Yet still I'm not trying to take anything away from you. You see, I repeatedly stated, I like free modding, and I'm sure, that even when paid modding was a thing free modding will stay. Someone makes mod x for x amount of money, as small or large as that amount may be, someone else will come and make a similar amount for free. And that's fine and good for me. It will drive quality forward, as those who want to sell their mod will have to make better and better quality to stay aead of those who make the free copies, in turn forcing the free copies to get better in quality.

Also not every free mod is free in the sense of freedom, and now comes the really interesting part.

We have to look at each modders intentions, their reasons to do their mods. And as it happens there are actually quite a few reasons where providing your mods is actually quite beneficial to your goals.

 

There are already a lot of examples, of modders using their fame they built to start their own gaming studios, advertise their youtube ambitions or using their modding portfolio to get better jobs. That's actually quite common, but those mods aren't actually free. You just pay their price in a non monetary way, that is sometimes very abstract, but still there. And those modders often even aren't honest about it, because of the common misconception that this behavior is bad, because you aren't the noble modding messiah, that people preaching the "mods have to be free religion" want. And here's the difference. I am open and honest about it, in saying you know what, I would like it being able to get paid for what I like to do. Yet I'm the bad guy, because I do like getting paid, and saying it openly.

As I said, there are plenty and plenty of reasons to release a mod, ranging from advertising yourself, "meh might as well upload it", trying to push as many files in the hotfiles by abusing the system, Collecting internetz etc. and I'm not taking any of them away. I'm just adding ie "yeah, might get a buck or two of that, might be worth packing it up and cleaning it for release"

 

and given that my family history has some *pretty well off members* and I'm not doing so well, because I used to share your attitude, and found myself lacking in work ethic until I changed my considerations around... well I found this quote is helpful - that said the kinds of things I was working under/for weren't inspiring, so I found something that was that, something intrinsically rewarding and modestly secure financially - but based on the premise that work ethic yields the potential for rewards, not the promise

treat them right or somebody else will, never think you're irreplaceable

First of all Work ethics belong in your job. You are denying that modding should get paid, so please leave work out of it. It's a hobby, and I treat it as that. If that is a problem for you...well, pay me or bugger off.

Second of all as this is a hobby you have no way of judging my work ethics. I might be a lazy bum, I might have been successful enough to not even need to work anymore, I might have won in the Lotto, I migh be serious sick and not even able to work. You don't know me, you got no right to judge my work ethics based on a hobby. Second of all, I provided plenty of stuff and help for other modders. I'm in the credits for Busty Grrl, for discovering the way that mod works through datamining, back when the game was released, I'm in the credits for Settlement Keywords Expanded for helping with discussing the direction that mod should take. I'm in the credits of Elianoras Armor Collection for providing her with the original conversions for her synth outfits etc.

I have a few own mods (non of them I would consider worth selling, btw.) here and on other sites. I have helped a bunch of other modders solve problems, and often I even explicetly asked not to be in the credits, because usually I prefer to work in the background. The reason that has changed and me now releasing mods directly was, that I wanted to more directly give things back to the community.

This was the original intend of my BodySlide Conversions, and the reason why I added mini tutorials to its articles tab, to get other people started.

So, I'm sorry to say, son, you are barking at the wrong tree.

 

And yeah, apparently I'm full of hubris, because I now just started to tell a bit of all the stuff I did in the past. blah blah blah. As I said...keep preaching your religion, but please don't impede on mine. (The keyword is/was preaching btw, not religion.)

 

Edit: Oh while we are at youtube videos, here's one for you:

 

 

Yes, that's about racism, but the same principle applies to any kind of predjudging...

Edited April 29, 2016 by RustyXXL

[dspeed]

This thread has taken an incredibly strange direction..