Cut BOS Ending

[Lehcar]

I don't think Danse was a replacement for a real human, otherwise he would have known he was a synth. I think he was meant to be a prototype, or a servant or a guard or something, but somehow escaped from the Institute, and their failsafes made him forget all knowledge of the Institute, along with it the fact that he was a synth. In otherwords, there has only ever been one Danse, and he was always a synth.

[CyrusAmell]

I don't think Danse was a replacement for a real human, otherwise he would have known he was a synth. I think he was meant to be a prototype, or a servant or a guard or something, but somehow escaped from the Institute, and their failsafes made him forget all knowledge of the Institute, along with it the fact that he was a synth. In otherwords, there has only ever been one Danse, and he was always a synth.

 

Agreed, there is little to no evidence that there was ever a normal human named Danse who was replaced by our synth Danse. What is up for discussion is how Danse ended up in the Capital Wasteland to begin with. The standard belief is that the Railroad saved him, gave him new memories and set him up in D.C. where he eventually joined the Brotherhood of his own volition. However, none of the Railroad Operatives know who he is in Fallout 4 (which could be explained by facial reconstruction). Alternatively, he was planted by the Institute as a sleeper agent with no knowledge of his true nature and just enough ingrained "memories" that he would not question his past. Various medical logs in the Brotherhood speak of how he is getting a terrible headache lately which some believe may be Institute signals that he just shuts out. It would be this unintended defiance that would get him labeled a missing synth in the database because the institute has no idea why Danse is not responding.

Edited May 2, 2016 by CyrusAmell

[Athanasa]

Imma slice up this post and adress it a bit with my understanding of the game.

 

 

It is impossible for me to accept that the concept of building an advanced computer system, and throwing in a few cloned organs could "somewhere along the way" result in a living soul.

As I understand it (or possibly not, given the Curie thing...) Synths seem to have a squishy grey matter brain with a computer chip in it. That would certainly explain many 'glitches' and 'malfunctions' if you're allowing grey matter to get involved. Having said that, I'm pretty sure Nick hasn't got anything squishy in his head.

 

 

When you save Danse, or rather his robotic imitation who, by the way, most likely killed and replaced our beloved Paladin...

Actually, probably not. There's multiple reasons that suggest this is not the case.

1. The DNA sample of Current Danse matches the DNA of Danse on the database. Assuming this DNA is taken when an initiate joins the BOS (to be stored on their holotags to ID the body, I assume) when the DNA of Danse as he joined the BOS matches the DNA of Danse now. So, no Switch.
2. Danse is from Rivet City. Rivet City also had members of the Railroad there (see Harkness). It is entirely possible that there were other 'freed' Synths in Rivet City like Harkness.
3. Super generic backstory up to Rivet City. If you do the Harkness quest line, you'll find that Harkness' memories are actually taken from one of the Vaults in some computer program I can't really remember. So, Harkness gets Detailed Memory, and good old Danse gets Generic Backstory 0.2: wasteland orphan picking through rubble. Hell, you can even skip that - when he wakes up from his mem wipe, just say that he was found scavenging and has amnesia. Bam, generic backstory sorted. (Probably not even that rare with the drug riddled violent world of Fallout)
4. Given the limited backstory / memory creation for mem wiped synths, I very much doubt that - if a mem wiped Synth - the memories of Cutler were inplanted.
5. I imagine the Institute has better technology for implanting memories. However, I do not know how good they are at adding emotion to back stories. So, assuming that even if Danse is an infiltrator, he was in the BOS before the death of Cutler (and therefore before being a Paladin?).
6. Lack of knowledge of his status as a Synth. It just seems impractical to have an infiltrator that doesn't KNOW they're an infiltrator. Especially when you've put them in an organisation heavily against the Institute. It just seems like a lot of risk and uncertainty in trying to get information back out of your infiltrator.
7. Almost bad placement, really. I mean, yes, Danse seems close to Maxson. But you'd think the Institute could choose a better person to replace than a Knight / Paladin, someone closer to the Prydwen that doesn't spend most of their time on the field. A Scribe would be far better placed to learn and relay information (although maybe harder to relay information, due to being always surrounded by the BoS)?

 

On the other hand, we have the following to favour the 'replaced real person' argument.

1. At no point were his Synth components found during his service in the BOS - you'd think at some point he'd have an injury that would result in someone noticing something. Not that this actually is an argument for either side, it's more a massive plot hole (or suggests very recent replacement). Especially with his repeated headaches, ref Cade's computer.
2. Danse isn't on the Missing Synths list in the Institute (although one is noted to be in Boston Airport, the ID doesn't match Danse).
3. The Railroad doesn't recognise Danse as one of their freed Synths (would they recognise him? Do they keep that data, or avoid it for confidentiality?)

Personally, I prefer the Mem Wiped scenario. Mostly because that ties in nicely to Fallout 3 and quest lines there.

 

 

 

I don't agree with everything the B.o.S. does in Fallout 4. Namely gouging farmers for crops the scribes could be cultivating themselves. And destroying the entire Institute lab, rather than using the technology down there to benefit the Commonwealth, and the Brotherhood as a whole. But, otherwise, I'd say this is the most morally sound and effective the B.o.S. has ever been at one time.

Nope, we couldn't have that. I mean, then the Brotherhood would be the logical faction choice! Gotta keep it balanced.

[Athanasa]

 

I don't think Danse was a replacement for a real human, otherwise he would have known he was a synth. I think he was meant to be a prototype, or a servant or a guard or something, but somehow escaped from the Institute, and their failsafes made him forget all knowledge of the Institute, along with it the fact that he was a synth. In otherwords, there has only ever been one Danse, and he was always a synth.

 

Agreed, there is little to no evidence that there was ever a normal human named Danse who was replaced by our synth Danse. What is up for discussion is how Danse ended up in the Capital Wasteland to begin with. The standard belief is that the Railroad saved him, gave him new memories and set him up in D.C. where he eventually joined the Brotherhood of his own volition. However, none of the Railroad Operatives know who he is in Fallout 4 (which could be explained by facial reconstruction). Alternatively, he was planted by the Institute as a sleeper agent with no knowledge of his true nature and just enough ingrained "memories" that he would not question his past. Various medical logs in the Brotherhood speak of how he is getting a terrible headache lately which some believe may be Institute signals that he just shuts out. It would be this unintended defiance that would get him labeled a missing synth in the database because the institute has no idea why Danse is not responding.

 

I do wonder if Danse was a surface scavenging Synth or something. That way, his backstory of "scavenger and scrap merchant" isn't very far from the real truth. As a Synth, he was probably used to following orders unquestioningly (until whatever point he decided not to and got mem wiped, anyway). So, you've got the affinity for technology and scrap, I assume some combat ability or he'd be dead, and the past of following orders and being part of something bigger. Then the Brotherhood comes along to Rivet City and he joins them. This fills the hole in his life of needing something to be part of, to follow orders and be a cog in the machine. Plus he gets to continue scavenging and scouting, as per his original programming.

 

As for ending up in the Capital Wasteland... Harkness is also in Rivet City. All evidence suggests that Harkness was an early / prototype Courser [see this info dump], who seems to be rebelling about retrieving escaped Synths at some point. A pet theory of mine is that before being wiped himself Harkness helps other Synths to escape, or maybe takes his last target with him to Rivet City for them both to start again.

[NewVegasEnforcer]

Imma slice up this post and adress it a bit with my understanding of the game.

 

 

It is impossible for me to accept that the concept of building an advanced computer system, and throwing in a few cloned organs could "somewhere along the way" result in a living soul.

As I understand it (or possibly not, given the Curie thing...) Synths seem to have a squishy grey matter brain with a computer chip in it. That would certainly explain many 'glitches' and 'malfunctions' if you're allowing grey matter to get involved. Having said that, I'm pretty sure Nick hasn't got anything squishy in his head.

 

 

When you save Danse, or rather his robotic imitation who, by the way, most likely killed and replaced our beloved Paladin...

Actually, probably not. There's multiple reasons that suggest this is not the case.

1. The DNA sample of Current Danse matches the DNA of Danse on the database. Assuming this DNA is taken when an initiate joins the BOS (to be stored on their holotags to ID the body, I assume) when the DNA of Danse as he joined the BOS matches the DNA of Danse now. So, no Switch.
2. Danse is from Rivet City. Rivet City also had members of the Railroad there (see Harkness). It is entirely possible that there were other 'freed' Synths in Rivet City like Harkness.
3. Super generic backstory up to Rivet City. If you do the Harkness quest line, you'll find that Harkness' memories are actually taken from one of the Vaults in some computer program I can't really remember. So, Harkness gets Detailed Memory, and good old Danse gets Generic Backstory 0.2: wasteland orphan picking through rubble. Hell, you can even skip that - when he wakes up from his mem wipe, just say that he was found scavenging and has amnesia. Bam, generic backstory sorted. (Probably not even that rare with the drug riddled violent world of Fallout)
4. Given the limited backstory / memory creation for mem wiped synths, I very much doubt that - if a mem wiped Synth - the memories of Cutler were inplanted.
5. I imagine the Institute has better technology for implanting memories. However, I do not know how good they are at adding emotion to back stories. So, assuming that even if Danse is an infiltrator, he was in the BOS before the death of Cutler (and therefore before being a Paladin?).
6. Lack of knowledge of his status as a Synth. It just seems impractical to have an infiltrator that doesn't KNOW they're an infiltrator. Especially when you've put them in an organisation heavily against the Institute. It just seems like a lot of risk and uncertainty in trying to get information back out of your infiltrator.
7. Almost bad placement, really. I mean, yes, Danse seems close to Maxson. But you'd think the Institute could choose a better person to replace than a Knight / Paladin, someone closer to the Prydwen that doesn't spend most of their time on the field. A Scribe would be far better placed to learn and relay information (although maybe harder to relay information, due to being always surrounded by the BoS)?

 

On the other hand, we have the following to favour the 'replaced real person' argument.

1. At no point were his Synth components found during his service in the BOS - you'd think at some point he'd have an injury that would result in someone noticing something. Not that this actually is an argument for either side, it's more a massive plot hole (or suggests very recent replacement). Especially with his repeated headaches, ref Cade's computer.
2. Danse isn't on the Missing Synths list in the Institute (although one is noted to be in Boston Airport, the ID doesn't match Danse).
3. The Railroad doesn't recognise Danse as one of their freed Synths (would they recognise him? Do they keep that data, or avoid it for confidentiality?)

Personally, I prefer the Mem Wiped scenario. Mostly because that ties in nicely to Fallout 3 and quest lines there.

 

 

 

I don't agree with everything the B.o.S. does in Fallout 4. Namely gouging farmers for crops the scribes could be cultivating themselves. And destroying the entire Institute lab, rather than using the technology down there to benefit the Commonwealth, and the Brotherhood as a whole. But, otherwise, I'd say this is the most morally sound and effective the B.o.S. has ever been at one time.

Nope, we couldn't have that. I mean, then the Brotherhood would be the logical faction choice! Gotta keep it balanced.

These are all very valid points, and indeed, it is possible that Bethesda wrote him strictly as a synth who joined the the Brotherhood after having its memory wiped. There are two reasons this scenario doesn't quite make sense to me though. And this is just what I picked in my playthrough, as to what I think is going on.

 

1. Paladin Danse was a frontline operator and, given what B.o.S. recon teams tend to encounter, he was probably getting torn up pretty regularly. Which would lead to both time spent with his guts hangin' out, and time spent having them put back in at the infirmary. As you stated, surely someone would've noticed he wasn't human. Especially since cutting someone open seems to be a Commonwealth favorite for finding synths.

 

2. From my understanding Danse was brought into the Brotherhood of Steel as an orphaned child. I'm not sure when the Institute started building synths to imitate children, but I believe it was a much more recent development project. But the big issue here is whether a synth can simulate growth. So far I highly doubt it. The synth had just gotten to the point in its design that it looked indistinguishable from a human. And that seemed to be the primary goal at the time. It seems unlikely that such an advanced feature would already be implemented at such an early stage.

 

As for his not knowing he was a synth... That goes back to how you view the concept of an android. For me it's very simple. A machine does what it's programmed to do. Even in the case of a program designed to learn and adapt, it's still a program within a machine. At no point can it be considered self-aware. In this case, the whole point of the synth is to replicate a targeted individual and imitate their behavior as closely as possible, (This would also account for the DNA match.) in order to gather data on their surroundings. I'm not an Institute scientist, so I don't really know how synth programming is supposed to work, but if I had to guess, I'd say when you uncovered that Danse had been replaced it was trying to adapt to the situation of being hunted, while still maintaining the imitation. Think of it as an actor that's unable to break character.

 

In any case, this is all my opinion on the awesome new world Bethesda has created for us to explore. I'm sure mine differs greatly from many others, but I suppose that's sort of the point. If Danse was replaced, I will hope to seek vengeance for his death in my playthrough. And if he truly was a synth, the whole relationship was some sort inception style adventure with a fictional character who, even in the game was false... I've seen many posts hoping for DLC that adds more faction content, but I'd have to agree, we probably won't see any. In the meantime those who hold true to the Brotherhood of Steel don't really have a proper companion to fit the role. In fact, other than Cait and MacCready, most all the other followers will actually ridicule and complain about the faction, which for some of us is aggravating to say the least.

[Athanasa]

2. From my understanding Danse was brought into the Brotherhood of Steel as an orphaned child. I'm not sure when the Institute started building synths to imitate children, but I believe it was a much more recent development project. But the big issue here is whether a synth can simulate growth. So far I highly doubt it. The synth had just gotten to the point in its design that it looked indistinguishable from a human. And that seemed to be the primary goal at the time. It seems unlikely that such an advanced feature would already be implemented at such an early stage.

 

Oh crap. Pressed enter too quickly.

 

Anyway: Nah, he joined the BOS from Rivet City where he had been a scrap merchant. He'd stumbled into Rivet City from the Wasteland and made friends with Cutler. They then started a business in Rivet City selling scrap together, before joining the BOS together at a later date. I assume he's around 20 when he joins the BoS?

 

As for not seeing Synth parts... that's a giant plot hole no matter HOW you look at it.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Athanasa

[NewVegasEnforcer]

 

2. From my understanding Danse was brought into the Brotherhood of Steel as an orphaned child. I'm not sure when the Institute started building synths to imitate children, but I believe it was a much more recent development project. But the big issue here is whether a synth can simulate growth. So far I highly doubt it. The synth had just gotten to the point in its design that it looked indistinguishable from a human. And that seemed to be the primary goal at the time. It seems unlikely that such an advanced feature would already be implemented at such an early stage.

 

Oh crap. Pressed enter too quickly.

 

Anyway: Nah, he joined the BOS from Rivet City where he had been a scrap merchant. He'd stumbled into Rivet City from the Wasteland and made friends with Cutler. They then started a business in Rivet City selling scrap together, before joining the BOS together at a later date.

 

As for not seeing Synth parts... that's a giant plot hole no matter HOW you look at it.

 

Well now... Honestly that was my biggest reason for believing he was human before this all started. If that's the case, it does sound more plausible that he was a synth being relocated by the Railroad. My other indications still stand, but with much less strength given they could simply be over sights.

 

That also ruins my current attempt at the Minuteman/Brotherhood end that, in theory, would keep from having him replaced at all. I figured the Glowing Sea would've been the most likely time frame, given the massive outpost the Institute had out there, and the amount of time he was stationed there under limited watch. But I also had a theory he may have been replaced sooner, and it was actually the synth at that point that opted to stay in the Glowing Sea so he could report to said outpost.

 

Given that he was listed (I believe...) as a deployed synth, rather than a missing one, I'm still more inclined to think he was human in Rivet City. You had mentioned placement beforehand, mentioning that it would make more sense to replace a scribe, or someone who spends more time in the inner workings of the group. But I don't think the Institute was trying to get information on the Brotherhood. Your son said he's the one who had you released from the vault, because he wanted to see what would happen. My guess is that he had Danse replaced as a better way to find out what you were up to. Either out of his curiosity in what you would do when released, or at this point, he may have considered you a real threat to his goals, and wanted a more effective way of staying informed on your operations with the Brotherhood of Steel.

 

Again, I'd say with the information that he was of adult age when he joined, and given the theme of the game being very synth heavy, your theories are more plausible.

[Athanasa]

Oh GODDAMNIT, I had a whole massive thing typed up and now it's gone. Bugger. Anyway, it was basically a timeline of stuff and logic, so colour coded bullet point time.

 

Timeline, DNA Nonsense, Mutterings

1. Danse joins the BOS before 2277 (his Sponsor dies at Adams Air Force base, 2277)
2. 2277: Zimmer comes to Rivet City looking for escaped Synths (Harkness, in this case)
3. (Weird note on a Wiki page says Danse was a paladin already at this point? Don't remember any source in game. That would imply joining the BOS at least 3 years prior to 2277, but no source was cited)
4. The BOS has Synth-Danse's DNA in their database (no un-Synth data)
5. This DNA sample would almost certainly have been taken before going to the Commonwealth (Danse doesn't get back to the Prydwen much)
6. Assumption: DNA samples taken upon becoming a fully fledged BOS member
7. Head Canon: DNA data stored on Holotag, along with various other pieces of information (otherwise why use a Holo anything, rather than a normal tag)
8. Conclusion: DNA sample taken when Danse joins the BOS, at least pre-2286.
9. Prydwen launched 6 years after Adams Air Force base, 2283.
10. Danse stationed on Prydwen for one year before Cutler goes missing on assignment. (2284)
11. Danse launches solo mission to find Cutler.
12. Assumption: Paladin rank by the point of this mission, or achieved Paladin because of it.
13. Recon Squad Gladius (Paladin Danse as commander) sent to Commonwealth in 2286.
14. Gladius arrives in the Commonwealth in January 2287.
15. Sole Survivor defrosted 2287 (Autumn?).

Now, my view of this is as follows: There's potentially a very long time between the 'insertion' of an infiltrator unit (timestamped by DNA testing being Synth DNA) to actually getting to the Commonwealth. And that's a lot of (very dangerous) string pulling to get the unknowing infiltrator to get to the Commonwealth (unless the idea is planted "you want to go to the Commonwealth, volunteer!")... but then again, as I understand it Danse's mission was partially to look for the previous recon group? And besides, in terms of "controlling the character", Shaun has Kellog for that. Arguably a far better bait than a member of a faction Sole Survivor may not even meet or join. I don't actually remember what list Danse was on with the holotape - missing or active? There's only a few missing synths listed in the Institute (interestingly, one is listed as being at Boston Airport).

 

Honestly, at this point the more you poke at the time lines and logic, the more holes there are. Like why the hell does the BOS keep DNA records on all their soldiers? How and WHERE did they find the technology for that in the Wasteland? What sort of computer were they running that managed to pick that out? How wasn't Danse's synth-ness noticed sooner with such a high risk career choice? They have Xrays on the Prydwen - how hasn't it shown up in Xrays? With his complaints of headaches, you'd expect SOMEONE to check for head injuries. How come no-one in the Institute or Railroad comments? Why isn't his cabin on the Prydwen stuffed with Fancy Lads Snack Cakes?

Edited May 2, 2016 by Athanasa

[NewVegasEnforcer]

Wow, man. You went all out on that one! Honestly you had already managed to convince me. Your theory is about as close to an official explanation as we've had. Assuming he was a synth when he first joined up he wouldn't still have any real ties to the Institute at that point, (Going with your memory wipe theory.) so I'm not disputing that he wouldn't be an be an infiltrator in that scenario. My whole explanation as to why the real Danse was human is based on whether or not he was human when he joined. My only valid question at this point is how you came to find out the DNA was indeed synthetic? Wouldn't the institute at this stage be able to match the DNA of their synths to the original? Or do you think this a complexity even the rule bending world of Fallout can't conquer?

 

As for my previous statements on your son having him replaced to gather data on the player... I had always considered it to be well after the death of Kellog. And certainly the entire concept of Danses' identity, or lack there of, only exists in a Brotherhood playthrough, therefor if he were to be replaced you would be in the faction already for Shaun to even consider it.

 

I'm sure all the plotholes are there because Bethesda didn't really mean for it to be thought through as thoroughly as it has been by fans. They fairly obviously built this questline as a way to shock any players who were die-hard Brotherhood/Maxson followers, and give the story a feeling of depth. It feels a lot like it may have been something they thought of half way through in some regards. but that brings me back to what is quite possibly my biggest complaint with the ordeal... In the process of creating that surprise, they stripped away the one companion meant for whole hearted B.o.S. supporting characters.

 

Anyway, thank you for having this little debate with me. I haven't actually had a chance to discuss it with anyone who shared the interest. Oddly enough, most the people I know that play are anti Brotherhood of Steel in Fallout 4, but that's a whole other can of nonsense...

[Athanasa]

Wow, man. You went all out on that one! Honestly you had already managed to convince me. Your theory is about as close to an official explanation as we've had. Assuming he was a synth when he first joined up he wouldn't still have any real ties to the Institute at that point, (Going with your memory wipe theory.) so I'm not disputing that he wouldn't be an be an infiltrator in that scenario. My whole explanation as to why the real Danse was human is based on whether or not he was human when he joined. My only valid question at this point is how you came to find out the DNA was indeed synthetic? Wouldn't the institute at this stage be able to match the DNA of their synths to the original? Or do you think this a complexity even the rule bending world of Fallout can't conquer?

 

[...]

 

I'm sure all the plotholes are there because Bethesda didn't really mean for it to be thought through as thoroughly as it has been by fans. They fairly obviously built this questline as a way to shock any players who were die-hard Brotherhood/Maxson followers, and give the story a feeling of depth. It feels a lot like it may have been something they thought of half way through in some regards. but that brings me back to what is quite possibly my biggest complaint with the ordeal... In the process of creating that surprise, they stripped away the one companion meant for whole hearted B.o.S. supporting characters.

 

As I understand it, the Institute uses Shaun's DNA to create their Gen 3 Synths. How MUCH DNA they use is up for debate, but it seems to be the case of, "We want non-irradiated-to-hell DNA". They wanted "pure DNA". My best guess is that it's closest to the whole 'frogs for DNA' thing in Jurassic Park - patch up the holes and damage of irradiation to everyone 'native' to the FO4 timeline. I mean, it probably doesn't make sense on a genetic science level, but this is Bethesda we're talking about.

 

As for the "shock and awe" plotline, entirely agreeing with you there. That's part of the reason I never actually completed the game. I wanted to go BOS, but what's the point being in the Brotherhood if they've taken away your brother-in-arms? I want to stomp around the Wasteland as Power Armor Buddies, damnit! I should be fighting side by side with my sponsor and Brotherhood mentor to destroy the Institute. Like all other Faction companions, he should have the potential to be there from start to finish of that faction's ending.

 

But no, it had to be consumed in a "shock and awe" plotline that Bethesda never completely finished or polished. I don't even mean the cut content - I mean the jarring moments where Danse shoots down Brotherhood patrols shouting, "FOR THE BROTHERHOOD!". I mean, come on Bethesda. I agree the cut content was a bit too far of a leap, but can we at least fix up Danse's lines post-quest? Am I salty? Very. I'm like the Dead Sea of salty over this. I built up my character to be For The Brotherhood, but now I've got no squad.

 

(Oh well. Now CK is out, we can at least make mods for it. "Is Danse wearing a PA helmet? If YES, then BOS can't recognise him, no aggro.")