Kids or No Kids?

[Flintlockecole]

@Flintlockecole: You are 19, a year younger than I was when I met my first girlfriend. She was already at that age ready to have a baby, but I wasn´t and I told her that, how could I take care of a child without even a profession or a degree? That relationship ended after six months. Later she moved to Sweden, met a man there and now has a family she wanted, I´m happy for her. Your time for having children hasn´t even started yet. First you must get a profession or a degree of some sort, then a job and after that you can consider a family, without too much worry. That is my advice to you. Besides, this world may be screwed up, but future generations will hopefully make it better, so there´s a reason to have kids.

 

<snipped>

 

 

I refer to the fact I had a love and she died painfully, long story short: I don't see the world the same anymore.

[SpellAndShield]

Nonono, Lis, it was Bben46's remark that I found insensitive, not yours. It is a bit much saying that having kids is the meaning of life when there are bound to be people on here (I doubt I'm the only one) who have had infertility issues and, for that matter, when there are people like Balagor who has courageously confronted his psychological issues and taken the decision that it would not be right to have children. There are also those who decide that their economic circumstances are so precarious that they feel they cannot bring a child into the world. In the UK there are plenty who, due to the monumentally generous welfare state, decide the exact opposite in order to obtain social housing and extra welfare benefits. Please don't tell me that the former group are worse people.

 

No, I did NOT say that you have to be loaded with wealth to give a child a stable, loving and caring background. When I speak of precarious economic circumstances, I am talking about the sort of people who have taken a look at their situation and decided that they maybe don't have security in regards to their housing or job situation, and have decided that they do not want to have a child in those circumstances.

 

Objectively speaking, propagating one's DNA is the meaning of life; it is every species meaning of life. Any other meaning would necessarily have to be contrived, which would not diminish it but it is and would have to be artificial.

[JimboUK]

We don't have any because the other half can't, it's not that much of an issue because neither of us really want them. I'd make a terrible parent anyway, I don't have the patience. I look at it this way, we can go out when we want, we can come in when we want, we can watch what we want when we want and so on. What we lose from not having kids we make up for with a better standard of living. I know it comes across as selfish and well it probably is but I think it's better to live life in a way that makes you happy rather than conform to social norms and bring a life into the world you may not end up doing the best for.

[HeyYou]

Children CAN bring happiness, they can also be a right pain in the keester. Just depends on how well you raise them initially. After a point, (somewhere between 11 and 15) they become their own person, and a lot of the 'control' you thought you had, reveals itself as the illusion it truly was. Please note though, that even the BEST parents can raise a rotten kid......

 

I never planned on having children. Life had other ideas for me. I was a rotten SOB when I was a teenager. My son turned out nothing like me. He is an accountant now, and make more just starting out, than I did after working in the same place for a buncha years. He has my first biological grandchild. I am pleased to have them both, and wouldn't change a thing there if I could.

 

We were dirt poor when my son was born. I was going to college, fresh out of the air force... my wife at the time was working at the local newspaper. We weren't rich, but, we did OK, and enjoyed our lives. Sure, I have some regrets in my past, but, I think everyone does... and if they say they don't, they are lying. :D

[ginnyfizz]

Objectively speaking, propagating one's DNA is the meaning of life; it is every species meaning of life. Any other meaning would necessarily have to be contrived, which would not diminish it but it is and would have to be artificial.

 

It is attitiudes like yours that make people who either cannot have children or have chosen not to have children feel like social lepers. How the hell can a physical disorder like mine or a psychological one such as Balagor's be contrived? Since you are certainly sure never to have PCOS like I did, seeing as you're a guy, you would never understand that certainly many of the conditions that cause female infertility cause so many other problems that you would never engineer them even if you could.

 

And finding another purpose in life than bringing up kids is no more contrived than actually having them. There is nothing contrived about just dealing with the hand that life has dealt you.

 

Thanks, Stardusk, for being one of the many to perpetuate what is the only form of discrimination that is still socially acceptable, nay, is even socially encouraged by the welfare system, at least where I come from.

[Maigrets]

bben: The meaning of life is not kids, the meaning of life is 42. But in all seriousness, I feel bad for anybody who really believes this. And even worse for the people who are incapable of having children who believe this.

 

>This<

 

I am one of those people who could not have children. I refused to let the idea of having kids be my raison d'etre and consequently did not spend either a huge amount of financial resources (neither mine nor the NHS's)or emotional resources in obsessing about getting kids. I got on with my life, recognising that for me, it was not to be.

 

I really do wish that people would not portray the childless as being either lacking in true emotion or maturity. My infertility was caused by PCOS. And now I'm menopausal. Better shoot me now then. And for the childless by choice, it can often be a courageous choice given the amount of pressure and odd/pitying/condescending/horrified looks that you get.

 

Shame on you Bben46, I would really have expected better from you. Hedonistic lifestyle does not come into it in many cases. Expecially in this day and age of precarious employment situations - I for example am at risk of redundancy YET AGAIN. And I'm not on my own.

 

 

I agree with this post and usually you and I don't agree on anything. :) We are both in similar situations actually, age wise, economy and the job situation and perhaps more like hard headedness.

 

Besides having a childhood I wouldn't wish on anyone else, I have never had any maternal instinct, at all. I never wanted children or had the desire to go along with the expected house with a picket fence and 3 kids after I got married despite pressure from family and friends. My husband felt the same way which was all fine until I reached my mid 30's and had a brief yearning because the clock was ticking as the expression goes. I then found it was impossible to have kids, and always would have been.

 

Ironically, partly because of that brief change of heart, which wasn't real but a response to biology and outside pressures, my husband left me and we later divorced. He had two children from a previous marriage which ended badly and had an irrational fear of it happening again, so he got out while he could. There were other reasons it all fell apart, but that was the overlying one.

 

I don't dislike kids or anything remotely like that, but I truly have no maternal feelings at all and I cannot begin to understand the feelings a mother or father have for their offspring, especially a mother who has carried that child and given birth to it. Perhaps I could be seen as having some kind of psych or personality defect by some, but I made a choice, especially feeling the way I did and still do, even though it's too late anyway. I don't feel I've missed out on anything because of it.

 

I do feel for people who are unable to have their own children due to infertility, but I don't "feel" or understand the desire and desperation of it. I also believe some people just shouldn't be parents, myself included. Over my long nursing career and my own childhood, I've seen plenty of the good and bad of family life.

 

@ draconix

You have no idea how much of a relief it is to hear that. I think I was so long-winded in my original post in this discussion mostly because I felt like I was already on the defensive because we do get those looks or talks, even/especially from within our own family. It's not an easy choice to make. Not only do we have to fear the scorn of society, but in our old age we'll have nobody. That's a little frightening.

 

I read your other post and for the most part I agree with what you had to say. However, having children is absolutely no guarantee of having them with you in your old age. As I said above, over my nursing career I've had plenty of time to observe what very often happens between elderly parents and children especially when finances are concerned. Children are no guarantee of not being alone in old age.

 

View PostStardusk, on 06 August 2011 - 10:44 AM, said:

Objectively speaking, propagating one's DNA is the meaning of life; it is every species meaning of life. Any other meaning would necessarily have to be contrived, which would not diminish it but it is and would have to be artificial.

 

Read the above post by Ginnyfizz which says everything I would have had I noticed your post before.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Maigrets

[SpellAndShield]

Objectively speaking, propagating one's DNA is the meaning of life; it is every species meaning of life. Any other meaning would necessarily have to be contrived, which would not diminish it but it is and would have to be artificial.

 

It is attitiudes like yours that make people who either cannot have children or have chosen not to have children feel like social lepers. How the hell can a physical disorder like mine or a psychological one such as Balagor's be contrived? Since you are certainly sure never to have PCOS like I did, seeing as you're a guy, you would never understand that certainly many of the conditions that cause female infertility cause so many other problems that you would never engineer them even if you could.

 

And finding another purpose in life than bringing up kids is no more contrived than actually having them. There is nothing contrived about just dealing with the hand that life has dealt you.

 

Thanks, Stardusk, for being one of the many to perpetuate what is the only form of discrimination that is still socially acceptable, nay, is even socially encouraged by the welfare system, at least where I come from.

 

 

It is not discrimination as far as I can tell. I might decide against having children directly and I would still be conscious of the fact, that as an animal, that is my reason for being here, namely replicating my genes.Your infertility is of course not contrived, how could it be? But even with that infertility, spreading our genes is still our species' reason for being here, whether I like it or not. On another note, I have lived for quite some time now in the UK, first in Yorkshire, then in London; I have to say that the chavs up in Yorkshire tend to leave the impression of taking advantage of the welfare system much more so than those in London.

[ginnyfizz]

Have you ever heard of the expression "when in hole, stop digging"?. Well I should start taking note of it if I were you. Wow, you are insulting Northerners as well as the childless now. I am Derbyshire born and bred and from Yorkshire stock on one side. Yorkshire stock that were decidedly unchavvy and self made prosperous, I might add. And PAID their way through university. Except for the one that left uni to die, aged 19, in the service of King and Country, during WWII, as did his Papa.

 

You also have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, if you can make sweeping statements like ;-

 

"I have to say that the chavs up in Yorkshire tend to leave the impression of taking advantage of the welfare system much more so than those in London."

 

RUBBISH. The recent caps on housing benefit and changes in the law here were prompted largely by numerous scandals occurring in London whereby scroungers with large families[/i ]were taking advantage of the system to compel the local authorities to house them in palatial mansions in smart areas that you would normally have to be a multi millionaire to afford.

 

Here's a nice Northern piece of advice "Make sure brain is engaged before putting gob into gear".

[SpellAndShield]

Have you ever heard of the expression "when in hole, stop digging"?. Well I should start taking note of it if I were you. Wow, you are insulting Northerners as well as the childless now. I am Derbyshire born and bred and from Yorkshire stock on one side. Yorkshire stock that were decidedly unchavvy and self made prosperous, I might add. And PAID their way through university. Except for the one that left uni to die, aged 19, in the service of King and Country, during WWII, as did his Papa.

 

You also have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, if you can make sweeping statements like ;-

 

"I have to say that the chavs up in Yorkshire tend to leave the impression of taking advantage of the welfare system much more so than those in London."

 

RUBBISH. The recent caps on housing benefit and changes in the law here were prompted largely by numerous scandals occurring in London whereby scroungers with large families[/i ]were taking advantage of the system to compel the local authorities to house them in palatial mansions in smart areas that you would normally have to be a multi millionaire to afford.

 

Here's a nice Northern piece of advice "Make sure brain is engaged before putting gob into gear".

 

I just said it was my impression, that's all. Never claimed to be an expert on British child welfarism. When I lived in York, I saw tons of 16 year mothers, all the time, every day. It was just the impression I had. Now that I live in London, I don't see so much of it but probably because it is bigger and I am less exposed to all the areas of London whereas York is tiny by comparison, and for the record, I don't think there should be any welfare, in my country or in this this one, but that is not my call.

[DeadMansFist849]

bben: The meaning of life is not kids, the meaning of life is 42. But in all seriousness, I feel bad for anybody who really believes this. And even worse for the people who are incapable of having children who believe this.

 

>This<

 

I am one of those people who could not have children. I refused to let the idea of having kids be my raison d'etre and consequently did not spend either a huge amount of financial resources (neither mine nor the NHS's)or emotional resources in obsessing about getting kids. I got on with my life, recognising that for me, it was not to be.

 

I really do wish that people would not portray the childless as being either lacking in true emotion or maturity. My infertility was caused by PCOS. And now I'm menopausal. Better shoot me now then. And for the childless by choice, it can often be a courageous choice given the amount of pressure and odd/pitying/condescending/horrified looks that you get.

 

Shame on you Bben46, I would really have expected better from you. Hedonistic lifestyle does not come into it in many cases. Expecially in this day and age of precarious employment situations - I for example am at risk of redundancy YET AGAIN. And I'm not on my own.

 

 

This may be the absolutely only time I agree with you. Non-breeders are not worthless, hedonistic, immature or incapable of love. I can't produce little copies of myself, by reason of physical problems, and I don't want to anyway. This doesn't make me incapable of love--indeed, I have somewhat of a reputation as a bleeding heart with no brain. :P

 

If you're one of those who thinks non-breeders are bad or worthless, well, would you rather live next door to me, the quiet, childfree bloke who can help you fix stuff or that horrible, screaming chav/redneck family with 4 horribly-named kids they can't control without beatings? :) Think about that for a minute.