Bethesda sues Notch over the use of the word "Scrolls"

[amycus]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but here is notch's own version of what has happened:

 

A lot of people want more details about what is going on, so here is everything I know:

 

First of all, I love Bethesda. I assume this nonsense is partly just their lawyers being lawyers, and a result of trademark law being the way it is.

 

About half a year ago, our lawyers recommended us to register “Minecraft” as a trademark, so we did. I had voted against it initially, but we did it anyway. Better safe than sorry, and all that. At the same time, we also applied for “Scrolls”, the new game we’re working on. We knew of no similarly named games, and we had even googled it to make sure. I’m not even sure if you CAN trademark individual words, like “Scrolls”, but we sent in the application anyway.

 

(Disclosure: We’ve enforced the trademark for Minecraft once, when there was a minecraft clone on iOS, using our name. People were emailing me saying our iOS version was buggy and bad, so we asked them to change the name of their game, and they did.)

 

A while later, out of the blue, we got contacted by Bethesda’s lawyers. They wanted to know more about the “Scrolls” trademark we were applying for, and claimed it conflicted with their existing trademark “The Elder Scrolls”. I agree that the word “Scrolls” is part of that trademark, but as a gamer, I have never ever considered that series of (very good) role playing games to be about scrolls in any way, nor was that ever the focal point of neither their marketing nor the public image.

The implication that you could own the right to all individual words within a trademark is also a bit scary. We looked things up and realized they didn’t have much of a case, but we still took it seriously. Nothing about Scrolls is meant to in any way derive from or allude to their games. We suggested a compromise where we’d agree to never put any words in front of “Scrolls”, and instead call sequels and other things something along the lines of “Scrolls - The Banana Expansion”. I’m not sure if they ever got back to us with a reply to this.

 

Today, I got a 15 page letter from some Swedish lawyer firm, saying they demand us to stop using the name Scrolls, that they will sue us (and have already paid the fee to the Swedish court), and that they demand a pile of money up front before the legal process has even started.

 

I assume this is all some more or less automated response to us applying for the trademark. I sincerely hope Bethesda isn’t pulling a Tim Langdell.

[edriano]

I have said it once, but I think I will say it again...

 

If Bethesda win (which I highly doubt) then perhaps it will just matter of time before

 

War CRAFT decide to sue Mine CRAFT for using the word CRAFT .. and then perhaps

 

Marvel Spider-MAN decide to sue the DC Super-MAN for using the word MAN...

 

I mean seriously here? ..

 

ps.

And then maybe while still overjoyed with lawsuit victory, Bethesda decide to sue THE sims for using the word THE.

 

http://craigswinejourney.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/128847344485080355.jpg

Edited August 18, 2011 by edriano

[CamonnaTong]

Yeah but I would rather people call it by TES instead of just Oblivion. This would remove the confusion of many think Skyrim is Oblivion 2. It's like Calling Legend of Zelda Majora's Mask, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 2. But no one gets confused about that because The Legend of Zelda is more popular to kids and others than TES (I still love TES, I'm not saying I don't.) I assure you if TES became as famous as Legend of Zelda people would agree with Zenimax on this. Scrolls isn't used often for games vs something like Craft in a game. there are so many "Crafts" you can't do anything about it. Scrolls as I said is rare, and since The Elder Scrolls has Scrolls in it people can think it is Scrolls. One. Scrolls isn't widely known so I have met those even on the Minecraft forums thought a secret (Or so.) TES was being made through Mojang themselves. Two. I am sure if Mojang let it out of the box saying there are developing a new IP called Scrolls less would have been confused. Three. As someone said before and many agree is that the "Posting the unresolved legal dispute on the internet is bashing the acting company in many ways and gaining influence for their Case" Notch may not have wanted to make Bethsoft look bad but by doing this, he has to many.

 

Finally I'm sure if he contacted Bethsoft about this matter privately vs what he has done this probably would have been over. Because I know if I was the CEO or something of Bethsoft or Zenimax even I would be mad and would have liked the secret approach. It would be like someone tattle telling to everyone in the world about what you did (Anything at least in the aspect of said effect could be devastating.) and now most to all hate you for it Instead of going secretly to discuss what happened and resolving it and have a better life through it.

[demolishun]

They state very plainly that this is indeed about the use of the word scrolls, which you state in your first point is not copyrighted (even though were talking about a trademark dispute). This simple fact completely destroys your entire argument that this is some how Notchs fault.

 

I don't follow your logic. The main point of confusion I see on this forum is that Trademark != Copyright. You cannot copyright a single word like "scrolls". However, you can trademark a word or phrase like "The Elder Scrolls". What exactly are you thinking destroys my argument? Do you think trademark and copyright are the same thing?

 

For instance if you used "scrolls" to describe a set of "scroll" in your game Bethesda cannot touch that. The issue at hand is naming the game itself "Scrolls". This is very similar to TES. Another example: "Windows" is a trademark of Microsoft. As is "Microsoft" is another trademark of Microsoft. The Windows operating systems are unique copyrightable works. The word "windows" is not copyrightable.

 

The reason I put blame on the other company is that it is the responsibility of every company and individual to respect the IP of others. The other concept I see on this forum is because the company is small they are somehow special and should be protected from the big bad corporation. I am sorry to disappoint anyone, but the legal system is blind to such things. It has to be.

 

If you are confused on the trademark vs copyright then visit the US Patent office here: www.uspto.gov

[amycus]

They state very plainly that this is indeed about the use of the word scrolls, which you state in your first point is not copyrighted (even though were talking about a trademark dispute). This simple fact completely destroys your entire argument that this is some how Notchs fault.

 

I don't follow your logic. The main point of confusion I see on this forum is that Trademark != Copyright. You cannot copyright a single word like "scrolls". However, you can trademark a word or phrase like "The Elder Scrolls". What exactly are you thinking destroys my argument? Do you think trademark and copyright are the same thing?

 

For instance if you used "scrolls" to describe a set of "scroll" in your game Bethesda cannot touch that. The issue at hand is naming the game itself "Scrolls". This is very similar to TES. Another example: "Windows" is a trademark of Microsoft. As is "Microsoft" is another trademark of Microsoft. The Windows operating systems are unique copyrightable works. The word "windows" is not copyrightable.

 

The reason I put blame on the other company is that it is the responsibility of every company and individual to respect the IP of others. The other concept I see on this forum is because the company is small they are somehow special and should be protected from the big bad corporation. I am sorry to disappoint anyone, but the legal system is blind to such things. It has to be.

 

If you are confused on the trademark vs copyright then visit the US Patent office here: www.uspto.gov

 

Isn't the main problem here whether a game with just the simple name "scrolls" can be interpreted to be part of the elder scrolls series by the average consumer? Nothing more, nothing less, since that appears to be what they are writing as argument (assuming that the other 14 pages that we havn't seen states something else). And you might not agree with me, but I certainly don't think of any elder scrolls game if I see a game that's just named "scrolls". I doubt that the "average consumer" does that either. What's more, it's not a game in the same genre as I understand it.

 

I will also say that I'm not taking any side so far until I see the other 14 pages of the document notch received, but so far it doesn't sound like they have too much of a case.

[popcorn71]

 

I don't follow your logic. The main point of confusion I see on this forum is that Trademark != Copyright. You cannot copyright a single word like "scrolls". However, you can trademark a word or phrase like "The Elder Scrolls". What exactly are you thinking destroys my argument? Do you think trademark and copyright are the same thing?

 

For instance if you used "scrolls" to describe a set of "scroll" in your game Bethesda cannot touch that. The issue at hand is naming the game itself "Scrolls". This is very similar to TES. Another example: "Windows" is a trademark of Microsoft. As is "Microsoft" is another trademark of Microsoft. The Windows operating systems are unique copyrightable works. The word "windows" is not copyrightable.

 

The reason I put blame on the other company is that it is the responsibility of every company and individual to respect the IP of others. The other concept I see on this forum is because the company is small they are somehow special and should be protected from the big bad corporation. I am sorry to disappoint anyone, but the legal system is blind to such things. It has to be.

 

If you are confused on the trademark vs copyright then visit the US Patent office here: www.uspto.gov

My logic is simply this:

Zenimax owns the rights to "The Elder Scrolls".

"Scrolls" != "The Elder Scrolls".

Zenimax has not trademarked "Scrolls". Or as you stated

1. Nobody has copyrighted the word "scrolls".

and

Trademark != Copyright.

and

They state very plainly that this is indeed about the use of the word scrolls, which you state in your first point is not copyrighted (even though were talking about a trademark dispute).

 

The lawsuit is bogus because Zenimax does not exclusively own the rights to the word or title "Scrolls" be it for a game or otherwise.

 

You wont find per-existing trademarks of "Scrolls" if no per-existing trademarks of "Scrolls" exist. No amount or research can turn up what doesn't exist.

 

Saying that "Scrolls" is very similar to "The Elder Scrolls" is like that any software with "7" or "Ultimate" in its name is similar to "Windows 7 Ultimate" and Microsoft would be protecting is IP by suing its creators. Does that sound reasonable to you? Because it sounds pretty crazy to me.

 

If the above statements are true then it doesn't matter what we are talking about weather it be copyrights, trademarks, or even if its technically legal or not.

Edited August 19, 2011 by popcorn71

[Arthmoor]

I guarantee you that this is more than just a dispute over the word, despite what translations of the legal document say. Trademark is mainly all about brand, which is usually expressed in the form of logos AND titles. There may be something to the logo itself for the Scrolls game that Zenimax is taking issue with.

 

The proper response from Mojang should have been a formal response to the letter informing them of the issue. Not for the company's CEO to childishly display it for all to see on the web in an effort to make Zenimax look bad. The natural end result of that is going to be exactly as expected - Zenimax will want to go to trial rather than negotiate in private.

 

If he seriously thought it was a joke, then that says an awful lot about his ignorance of legal issues and that's a dangerous thing for any company.

[popcorn71]

Here is a link to the Scrolls web site. Doesn't look any thing any Elder Scrolls game I have ever seen. Or brand for that matter. In fact it looks a lot like some generic SNES or something.

 

For reference here are link the the various Elder Scrolls games wikipedia pages:

Arena

Daggerfall

Morrowind

Oblivion

Skyrim

 

Of particular note are the game cover images.

 

All that being said I would agree he should have gotten his facts strait and tried to negotiate in private first. Honestly I think your giving him to much credit saying that this is a deliberate attempt to to make Zenimax look bad. He doesn't exactly come across as the sharpest tool in the shed...

 

=== Edit ===

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but here is notch's own version of what has happened:

 

....

I sincerely hope Bethesda isn’t pulling a Tim Langdell.

Googleing "Tim Langdell" was very insightful.

Edited August 19, 2011 by popcorn71

[Arthmoor]

I can see a slight potential issue from the top of the Arena box art. I'd call it a stretch, but then we don't actually know what Zenimax is on about. Perhaps it has nothing to do with the mainstream titles and is instead related to the offshoots like Redguard, Battlespire, or the mobile games?

[demolishun]

Okay, I can see where you are coming from.

 

I think what the company is actually taking issue with is that Scrolls could be confused with The Elder Scrolls. I don't know that trademark has to match exactly to be a violation of someone's IP.

 

I know Microsoft did go after Lindows successfully. It is not the exact same word as Windows, but to Microsoft created confusion of brand.

 

I still see the responsibility being on Notch to resolve this issue as they created IP that could possibly infringe.

 

Yes, I do see Scrolls being too close to the name The Elder Scrolls. Also, the game is medieval in nature. If I were Notch I would be working very hard to smooth this over.

 

Edit:

I found this on another website

Ah yes, so you’re saying that this is a pre-emptive measure from Bethesda to avoid being sued by Mojang for using the word “Scrolls” when Bethesda releases a new “the Elder Scrolls”-game, IF that’s the case I find it completely understandable.

 

It was found here:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/08/05/elder-scrolls-vs-notchs-scrolls/

 

This whole deal started when Notch applied for a trademark on "Scrolls" in the "computer games" market. So that is completely reasonable. Because if that trademark is granted then Notch could sue Bethesda for using "scrolls" in the "The Elder Scrolls" on the grounds of trademark infringement. It is self defensive measure.

 

I think Bethesda learned something from the "Edge" guy. That is self defense.

Edited August 21, 2011 by demolishun