Why are some people cruel to animals?

[Aurielius]

@arcane20

Before I jump into this debate I would like to be clear on your position, so correct me if I have misperceived your thesis.

 

1- The consumption of animals for sustenance is unnecessary and cruel.

 

2- The process of raising animals for consumption is a form of cruelty.

 

3- The method of slaughter of cows, pigs, chickens etc is a form of animal cruelty.

 

4- You are championing a Vegan lifestyle.

 

I do have a counter thesis but it's early and have only skimmed all the posts so far.

[Ghogiel]

"I'd love to see you try and tell that to a lion or an anaconda. Not going to happen."

Of course nature is like that. Humans DO NOT NEED to eat meat we are not carnivores like lions and anacondas. Plus humans have the capacity to ignore what is coded in their DNA unlike most animals. Just because nature is like that doesn't mean we should follow it. AGAIN It is an appeal to authority. What you're essentially saying is "Nature does it so it's ok" You know what else is natural? SMALLPOX. But we changed our mind on that pretty quickly didn't we? yeah, So if you're going to argue that everything unnatural is bad you should get off the computer because guess what? computers aren't natural and therefore must be bad by your logic.

man made vs natural is an arbitrary distinction. The entire division is a man made construct in itself. Any thing we create is made within the bounds of natural laws and natural to our species. But I see what people mean by it, humans have always thought themselves as separate from the rest of the things in existence.

 

"Humans are omnivores,"

Yes we *can* consume prepared cooked meat. That's because we don't have the digestive system to deal with the bacteria in most raw meat. If humans had not discovered fire we wouldn't be eating meat. And just because we can does not justify anything.

 

Happened the other way around, our distant ancestors were eating meat. there wasn't a point were we discovered fire then could all of a sudden start digesting meat because we were cooking it.

we discovered fire and made offerings to it, in the form of food, then we started cooking meat. Which was an evolutionary advantage, cooking killed bacteria and sterilised food. Same thing happened when we were boiling water and brewing. Over time our digestive system lost that ability to safely digest raw meat. If we didn't discover fire, we'd still be eating raw meat. :thumbsup:

[arcane20]

@arcane20

Before I jump into this debate I would like to be clear on your position, so correct me if I have misperceived your thesis.

 

1- The consumption of animals for sustenance is unnecessary and cruel.

 

2- The process of raising animals for consumption is a form of cruelty.

 

3- The method of slaughter of cows, pigs, chickens etc is a form of animal cruelty.

 

4- You are championing a Vegan lifestyle.

 

I do have a counter thesis but it's early and have only skimmed all the posts so far.

 

1.- Yes

2.- It's more the treatment of animals that I find a form of cruelty in most cases. And I don't believe it's right to bring any living organism (including human beings but that's another debate) into the world for selfish reasons. On the basis that an animal feeling pain is bad and a non existent animal not feeling pleasure isn't bad. Now I would say that you cannot ultimately eliminate pain from any existent living organism and for those reasons they should not be bred for selfish reasons.

3. I find that many are forms of cruelty there are exceptions however it is mainly point 2 that I am arguing against.

4. essentially.

 

man made vs natural is an arbitrary distinction. The entire division is a man made construct in itself. Any thing we create is made within the bounds of natural laws and natural to our species. But I see what people mean by it, humans have always thought themselves as separate from the rest of the things in existence.

Agreed my argument was mocking his inane constructs.

 

Happened the other way around, our distant ancestors were eating meat. there wasn't a point were we discovered fire then could all of a sudden start digesting meat because we were cooking it.

we discovered fire and made offerings to it, in the form of food, then we started cooking meat. Which was an evolutionary advantage, cooking killed bacteria and sterilised food. Same thing happened when we were boiling water and brewing. Over time our digestive system lost that ability to safely digest raw meat. If we didn't discover fire, we'd still be eating raw meat. :thumbsup:

 

Actually I have to disagree with this if you look at the evolution of humans from our ancestors you'll notice that it's well documented that humans switching to meat had an adverse effect on human evolution in the teeth and jaw and other things. Before humans had a wide suface area tooth which would make it more difficult to eat meat.

 

An article from Nat geo with quotes from various experts on the topic. Explaining that cooking softens meat, by cutting up our food we don't need such a large jaw etc

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/02/0218_050218_human_diet_2.html

 

Please provide sources for where you got your information.

Edited September 3, 2011 by arcane20

[Aurielius]

@Arcane20

 

First off, would you decry the Aboriginal tribesmen who hunt in the outback or the former plains Indians who hunted Buffalo on the American Plains? Most of the higher life forms with the admitted exception of Elephants are carnivores, it provides a more calories in a more compact form than any form of grazing can possibly manage. I do not see man as anything more than the current apex of the predator pyramid, if we do not divorce ourselves from the rest of the animal kingdom how are we any less moral than a Lion who eats meat? Most primitive societal groups such as hunter gatherers were omnivores not vegetarians, I submit that it is genetically part of our make up to be such also. Anyone who has not had the opportunity to live in a farming / ranching environment might tend to take a more removed view of raising food stock, with the exception of the mega corporate farms they tend to treat their animals with extreme care being that it's very valuable property and most livestock need constant care to flourish.

Lastly I tend to agree with Ghogiel that morality is a social construct and is very subjective, the ethically of being a carnivore might well hinge on how hungry you are when pressed, if we take away your local markets, the veneer of modern civilization, the comfort of having others provide your caloric intake and reduce you to primal man once again, my money for survival is on the omnivores.

[ginnyfizz]

[ Agreed my argument was mocking his inane constructs.

 

ROFL, if that is not an ad hominem comment then I do not know what is. Hmmm "Inane" is pretty insulting and "his" is factually incorrect, since I am very obviously female. Ginny (in the UK at least) is the diminutive of a couple of different female names.

 

On the other hand, I was having a go at the concept of meat is murder and the argument that it is immoral to kill and/or eat animals. Not at you personally. It seems that I have good reason for my assumption that you hold/champion vegetarian/vegan beliefs, since in your reply to Aurelius you have actually admitted this. I have provided relevant instances of where I feel there really is no alternative to culling. I also feel that the moral argument against eating meat is a false one, for the same reasons articulated by Aurelius and Ghogiel.

 

@Aurelius

"Anyone who has not had the opportunity to live in a farming / ranching environment might tend to take a more removed view of raising food stock, with the exception of the mega corporate farms they tend to treat their animals with extreme care being that it's very valuable property and most livestock need constant care to flourish. "

 

I could not agree more. Over here in the UK I am involved in the campaign against the establishment of one of these mega corporate farms in my own fair county. For I live amongst farmers and am from farming stock, and can confirm the care that the pig, sheep and cattle farmers around here take of their stock. These men and women oppose the mega farm not so much because it is competition - since the way the EU has stuffed livestock farming in the UK most of them were well on their uppers anyway - but because of the animal welfare issues that they feel will bring the whole farming community into disrepute.

[Blacckkfire]

I really do not understand why someone would do it deliberately. Of course, I am a big meat fan, I absolutely love steak. But torturing animals with no particular gain is just like the mentality of a serial killer to me. And it has been shown that people that are charged with animal torture are more violent than normal.

 

I would not say it is a choice to be a violent person either. Yes, they can get help, but I do think it is a trait given from birth.

[Ghogiel]

 

Happened the other way around, our distant ancestors were eating meat. there wasn't a point were we discovered fire then could all of a sudden start digesting meat because we were cooking it.

we discovered fire and made offerings to it, in the form of food, then we started cooking meat. Which was an evolutionary advantage, cooking killed bacteria and sterilised food. Same thing happened when we were boiling water and brewing. Over time our digestive system lost that ability to safely digest raw meat. If we didn't discover fire, we'd still be eating raw meat. :thumbsup:

 

Actually I have to disagree with this if you look at the evolution of humans from our ancestors you'll notice that it's well documented that humans switching to meat had an adverse effect on human evolution in the teeth and jaw and other things. Before humans had a wide suface area tooth which would make it more difficult to eat meat.

 

An article from Nat geo with quotes from various experts on the topic. Explaining that cooking softens meat, by cutting up our food we don't need such a large jaw etc

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/02/0218_050218_human_diet_2.html

 

Please provide sources for where you got your information.

Nearly all great apes eat meat and insects. Since there are no apes that are strict vegetarians it is assumed our evolutionary ancestors were eating raw meat and able to eat raw meat.

[marharth]

Wait what?

 

I am pretty sure that Apes are herbivores.

 

Also since when do mega corporations treat animals with care? Evidence shows the exact opposite.

[grannywils]

Happened the other way around, our distant ancestors were eating meat. there wasn't a point were we discovered fire then could all of a sudden start digesting meat because we were cooking it.

we discovered fire and made offerings to it, in the form of food, then we started cooking meat. Which was an evolutionary advantage, cooking killed bacteria and sterilised food. Same thing happened when we were boiling water and brewing. Over time our digestive system lost that ability to safely digest raw meat. If we didn't discover fire, we'd still be eating raw meat. :thumbsup:

 

Actually I have to disagree with this if you look at the evolution of humans from our ancestors you'll notice that it's well documented that humans switching to meat had an adverse effect on human evolution in the teeth and jaw and other things. Before humans had a wide suface area tooth which would make it more difficult to eat meat.

 

An article from Nat geo with quotes from various experts on the topic. Explaining that cooking softens meat, by cutting up our food we don't need such a large jaw etc

http://news.national...man_diet_2.html

 

Please provide sources for where you got your information.

Nearly all great apes eat meat and insects. Since there are no apes that are strict vegetarians it is assumed our evolutionary ancestors were eating raw meat and able to eat raw meat.

 

You are correct about the apes, Ghogiel; Apes are omnivorous. They can eat fruits, grass, seeds and meat. Although the various species of apes may have preferences, nature doesn't force them to be either herbivorous or carnivorous. You can check this out if you would like to at:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Are_Apes_herbivore_omnivore_or_carnivore#ixzz1WvOl2p1x

[ginnyfizz]

Wait what?

 

I am pretty sure that Apes are herbivores.

 

Also since when do mega corporations treat animals with care? Evidence shows the exact opposite.

 

:wallbash:

 

Marharth, please read Aurelius' and my posts again carefully. We have both made the point that the mega corporations are the exception to the norm that the farming/ranching community treats their livestock with care. I also mentioned that in my own area, me and thousands of others, including the entire local farming community and a couple of the area's more famous sons (both well known actors)are conducting a campaign to stop a mega corporation mega farm being established.

 

:facepalm: