Discussing the events of September 11th

[SpellAndShield]

The best tribute anyone could pay to the American 9/11 would be to reverse the foreign policy that caused it to begin with, sadly we are doing the exact opposite now and there is no end in sight.

I think I prefer to use the Seals and hunt them down wherever they go to ground, I'm not much for appeasement and neither is the vast majority of the country. This is an ideological war and it will not change a thing to give in to the extremist demands, paying blackmail only leads to more blackmail.

 

Covert strikes vs. nation building? Is that what you mean? Extremist demands=stop occupying our county. I know you think American lives have more value than non-American ones but if you read the 9/11 commission report it cites quite cleary the reasons why the US was attacked.

 

Why do we get to keep our 1,000 or so bases in 130 countries? Because we are special? or just because we have the bombs...?

Yes, covert strikes that work versus nation building that doesn't. Yes, I value American lives more than terrorist ones hands down. If you need a lesson in geopolitics and the the value of prepositioned bases then I'm afraid this thread isn't the place. Too bad you don't think we are special and that our allies are valuable and we need to live up to our global commitments.

 

I am not talking about terrorists, I am talking about 'collateral damage', which I am sure you view as necessary. An example: by invading Iraq we invited more terrorism, ruined millions of lives and ruined the country, making it worse than it was before; Al Quaeda was not in Iraq before we invaded, now they are all over in Iraq. Brilliant stuff, I am sure you would agree. Global committments? The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, whist bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people. Ultimately you will lose this argument simply because we are broke and don't have the money for it and I doubt even the most war-loving of Americans would choose dropping bombs on civilians abroad over eating their next meal and receiving medical attention. I am talking about collateral damage here and it is massive.

[JimboUK]

Aurielius is right, appeasement won't stop them. They want to destroy the west and inflict a twisted version of Islam on large parts of the Islamic world by force if need be. There is nothing to discuss with them and they should be fought every step of the way. We can't let them take control of Saudi Arabia which will give them control over a large percentage of the worlds oil and we certainly cannot let them destroy Israel who are a close ally of the west and who share our values.

[SpellAndShield]

Aurielius, What that valuation and US foreign politics did to us (I can't and wish not to talk for any other country) that lead us to the military dictatorial period (one the darkest in our history (Brazil)) pretty much voids the claim. Notice I point USA as one main responsible and having a main role in it but I do not claim USA is "guilt" of it, that guilt fall only on ourselves.

 

PS: That dictatorial regimen is "over" now but it rendered a people dead to political conscious, extraneous to the surrounding. To the point a politician is caught and convicted and soon enough he/she is in the same post or even greater post in the government chain.

 

Often that same politician is voted by the same people it hurts so badly... I can't fully understand how we came to it, not even in the dictatorial apex it was so, even with real death risk we was out and speaking out loud the protests and death and torture was too common... yes, I lived those times. Looking to ourselves as people now I can't avoid the feeling we are dead inside, only hopping we are just deeply dormant.

 

I would like to apologise on behalf of the American people for what our government, CIA and others did to your people during Operation Condor and the other times. Most Americans don't even know about it or care. What the US did to Central and South America was a horrible thing that should receive more attention. I do not believe that American lives are more valuable than Brazilian ones or any others; all human life has dignity, once again my apologies.

[SpellAndShield]

Aurielius is right, appeasement won't stop them. They want to destroy the west and inflict a twisted version of Islam on large parts of the Islamic world by force if need be. There is nothing to discuss with them and they should be fought every step of the way. We can't let them take control of Saudi Arabia which will give them control over a large percentage of the worlds oil and we certainly cannot let them destroy Israel who are a close ally of the west and who share our values.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldgbOxDX6DE

[looloolooigotsomeapples]

I was 5. About to go to school, and my mom was in the living room shocked and looking at the coverage. I saw explosions and said "Cool!", because dammit, I was 5. Clearly, what happened didn't really register, and it really didn't until much later for me. Of course, every year there's a surge of patriotism and people cramming the word "Remember" into our heads (something that continues to this day in high school, and bothers me greatly). Now, as a person who can actually think for myself, I have looked into details about the events and am familiar with them. It was truly horrible, of course. Hell, toxins were released because of it and illnesses even today have been attributed to it. However, with everything that has happened since, and everything that has happened beforehand, I can't bring myself to have the same feelings about what happened that others do. Sunday isn't going to have any significance to me. As far as I am concerned, it will just be another Sunday and the following 9/11s will just be another day of the year.

[Keanumoreira]

I don't remember much on that terrible morning. My parents hadn't woken me up to go to school, and curious from both that and the loud noises coming from our T.V. in our living room, I decided to investigate. My mother had her hand over her mouth and I believe my Dad was shaking his head. I can't recall if I was there when I saw the buildings being attacked, but I do remember being there when they fell. I don't care if this Sunday is the tenth anniversary. I'm still going to do what I do every time this day comes and think of those poor people who lost their lives that day. I won't go outside or anything; for me, it's just a time for thinking. I'm just going to respect those 2,000 something lives and hope that their souls can rest easy, even now so that the man responsible is now dead. Anyone can tell me that it's over and that it's past, but I take emotional tragedies like this very seriously, even if I personally didn't lose anything from it. It's not out of Nationalism, or Patriotism, or whatever you want to call it. These were our people, and I believe that they should always remain in my memory. It's always a reminder to me of how cruel this world is and of how our lives could end at any moment. That's something I personally choose to hang onto, and in a way, it makes me happy. It makes me happy because I am lucky to be alive and be with the ones I love and that things could be so much worse. It teaches me to appreciate my life, and I think that's one of the reasons why I honor those lost. :) Edited September 9, 2011 by Keanumoreira

[Dan3345]

I was 5. About to go to school, and my mom was in the living room shocked and looking at the coverage. I saw explosions and said "Cool!", because dammit, I was 5. Clearly, what happened didn't really register, and it really didn't until much later for me. Of course, every year there's a surge of patriotism and people cramming the word "Remember" into our heads (something that continues to this day in high school, and bothers me greatly). Now, as a person who can actually think for myself, I have looked into details about the events and am familiar with them. It was truly horrible, of course. Hell, toxins were released because of it and illnesses even today have been attributed to it. However, with everything that has happened since, and everything that has happened beforehand, I can't bring myself to have the same feelings about what happened that others do. Sunday isn't going to have any significance to me. As far as I am concerned, it will just be another Sunday and the following 9/11s will just be another day of the year.

I'm not trying to sound rude or obnoxious, but not feeling any emotions over what happened on that day is likely caused by two things.

 

1. you were young as I was.

 

and

 

2. You did not lose any friends or family.

[Aurielius]

 

I am not talking about terrorists, I am talking about 'collateral damage', which I am sure you view as necessary. An example: by invading Iraq we invited more terrorism, ruined millions of lives and ruined the country, making it worse than it was before; Al Quaeda was not in Iraq before we invaded, now they are all over in Iraq. Brilliant stuff, I am sure you would agree. Global committments? The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, whist bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people. Ultimately you will lose this argument simply because we are broke and don't have the money for it and I doubt even the most war-loving of Americans would choose dropping bombs on civilians abroad over eating their next meal and receiving medical attention. I am talking about collateral damage here and it is massive.

First off you might not want to be so sure about what I think and stick to what I write, if memory serves in past posts I have addressed the issue of collateral damage to civilians and if you check you might see where I stand on that, if not then don't guess. You brought up the Iraq war I didn't, I confined my post to the terrorist that attacked us on 9/11. It seems you want to debate Foreign Policy, fine..create a thread and I'll be there. As for the inference of being a War Lover, that is rather droll since anyone who has ever fought in a war has an abhorrence of war, we might see the necessity at times but that is about as far as it goes. I have fought for my country and am not the least bit ashamed for having done so. It's damn easy to be an arm chair general and talk caustically about collateral civilian deaths, it's slightly different when you are in the cockpit making the snap decisions, so spare me your long distance living room insights.

[looloolooigotsomeapples]

I don't remember much on that terrible morning. My parents hadn't woken me up to go to school, and curious from both that and the loud noises coming from our T.V. in our living room, I decided to investigate. My mother had her hand over her mouth and I believe my Dad was shaking his head. I can't recall if I was there when I saw the buildings being attacked, but I do remember being there when they fell. I don't care if this Sunday is the tenth anniversary. I'm still going to do what I do every time this day comes and think of those poor people who lost their lives that day. I won't go outside or anything; for me, it's just a time for thinking. I'm just going to respect those 2,000 something lives and hope that their souls can rest easy, even now so that the man responsible is now dead. Anyone can tell me that it's over and that it's past, but I take emotional tragedies like this very seriously, even if I personally didn't lose anything from it. It's not out of Nationalism, or Patriotism, or whatever you want to call it. These were our people, and I believe that they should always remain in my memory. It's always a reminder to me of how cruel this world is and of how our lives could end at any moment. That's something I personally choose to hang onto, and in a way, it makes me happy. It makes me happy because I am lucky to be alive and be with the ones I love and that things could be so much worse. It teaches me to appreciate my life, and I think that's one of the reasons why I honor those lost. :)

 

That's great. It always irks me when people emphasize being proud to be an American with 9/11, as IMO, it's absolutely irrelevant.

 

I'm not trying to sound rude or obnoxious, but not feeling any emotions over what happened on that day is likely caused by two things.

 

1. you were young as I was.

 

and

 

2. You did not lose any friends or family.

 

Absolutely. However, you have me wrong: It's not that I don't feel any emotions over what happened, it's that I feel like it's not something to dwell over, and that just because something horrible happened on 9/11 does not mean that the day will mark any sort of special practice for me. That's just how I deal with it, and I don't matter how others do. What does bother me is when people get nationalistic purely for the sake of the day and that message is forced down everybody's throat. It's entirely possible that such a thing is more prevalent in high school, though.

[SpellAndShield]

 

I am not talking about terrorists, I am talking about 'collateral damage', which I am sure you view as necessary. An example: by invading Iraq we invited more terrorism, ruined millions of lives and ruined the country, making it worse than it was before; Al Quaeda was not in Iraq before we invaded, now they are all over in Iraq. Brilliant stuff, I am sure you would agree. Global committments? The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, whist bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people. Ultimately you will lose this argument simply because we are broke and don't have the money for it and I doubt even the most war-loving of Americans would choose dropping bombs on civilians abroad over eating their next meal and receiving medical attention. I am talking about collateral damage here and it is massive.

First off you might not want to be so sure about what I think and stick to what I write, if memory serves in past posts I have addressed the issue of collateral damage to civilians and if you check you might see where I stand on that, if not then don't guess. You brought up the Iraq war I didn't, I confined my post to the terrorist that attacked us on 9/11. It seems you want to debate Foreign Policy, fine..create a thread and I'll be there. As for the inference of being a War Lover, that is rather droll since anyone who has ever fought in a war has an abhorrence of war, we might see the necessity at times but that is about as far as it goes. I have fought for my country and am not the least bit ashamed for having done so. It's damn easy to be an arm chair general and talk caustically about collateral civilian deaths, it's slightly different when you are in the cockpit making the snap decisions, so spare me your long distance living room insights.

 

Is your response to our Brazilian friend and what we did to his country as well? The point of this is to stop looking only at our 9/11 and look at Chile's which we helped cause.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Stardusk