Should people without health insurance, etc. be allowed to die?

[Quetzlsacatanango]

Any form of involuntary taxation IS stealing.

[LadyMilla]

From a certain point of view, through taxation, the state is stealing from you because they collect a portion of your salary and spend it on things that you may never even use in your life.

If you don't like it, well, you can move to an uninhabited island and try to build a self-sustaining household, and then you can be free of involuntary taxation. Benefits of the most developed societies come at a cost. You can't eat your cake and have it too.

 

[Quetzlsacatanango]

It's not a matter of having a say in exactly how each penny is spent, really. It's a matter of taking property from an individual with the threat of force.

A sales tax, for example, is not theft. You choose to pay it or not when you choose to purchase an item. Pretty darn hard to dodge it, too.

[PowderdToastMan]

No one has the right to the fruits of someone elses labor. That includes medical services.

So you believe that if you can't afford medical services/insurance, whathaveyou, you should just let them drop dead? Perhaps offer them the pistol to end their pain and suffering?

 

it is your responsibility to pay for goods and services to keep yourself alive and no one elses. what you are suggesting would be like saying - im hungry and i cant afford it, so this dennys should give me my food for free -

 

They call this the land of oppritunity becaise it is the only place in the world where the government cannot coherse you or interfere in your private life and influence the decisions you make that will affect your livleyhood. That is more than your willl recieve on any other country on the planet.

 

and you want to bemoan the fact that you want someones elses products and services without paying for them at someone elses expense?

 

They say that to be born in the united states is to win first prize in the lottery of life, and i dont think you actually understand what that means or how fair the shake your are actually getting compared to every other country on the planet

[LadyMilla]

It's not a matter of having a say in exactly how each penny is spent, really. It's a matter of taking property from an individual with the threat of force.

A sales tax, for example, is not theft. You choose to pay it or not when you choose to purchase an item. Pretty darn hard to dodge it, too.

 

A sales tax is usually collected from the seller. It is definitely not a voluntary tax. You cannot tell the seller: "well, I don't want to pay it so let's just deduct it from the price, shall we?". I bet the seller will say: "Well, to be honest, I don't want to pay it either, but if you don't pay it, I will have to pay it to the government from my own purse because if I don't pay it, I will be prosecuted for violating the tax laws".

 

[PowderdToastMan]

Insurance is a scam to the extent that people are not thrifty with their services.

 

Milton Friedman once said that no one spends someone elses money as carefully as he spends his own. And that holds true. If there were food insurance and you had a 20 dollar co-pay, would you not get lobster and steak everytime at the grocerey store? In that same sense, when you go to the doctor, you get the "works" right? they do everything cuz you have insurance. That is one of the major factors of why health insurance is so expensive, and why services outside of health insurance are so expensive. The easiest comparison is the veterinary field. I can get major surgery on an animal for a thousand bucks, and the same surgery on a person withh the same instruments and materials costs 50,000 dollars.

 

In a world without insurance where people were thrifty, products and services were resonable and people were able to afford, or take out a loan to attain a major service. The dynamic has been shifted so that services are no longer cheap, but the solution is not and should not be the continuation of the very thing that caused it in the first place - the people spending money that isnt theirs.

[HeyYou]

It's not a matter of having a say in exactly how each penny is spent, really. It's a matter of taking property from an individual with the threat of force.

A sales tax, for example, is not theft. You choose to pay it or not when you choose to purchase an item. Pretty darn hard to dodge it, too.

Isn't it? You object to your tax dollars going to keep someone else alive. You regard it as "stealing". What's the difference between the government spending money for healthcare, and the government spending money on rebuilding some school in Iraq? Either way it is tax money being spent.

 

Also, if you wanna look at it that way (the sales tax example).... Income tax wouldn't be stealing either, as you could choose not to work.

 

 

Insurance is a scam to the extent that people are not thrifty with their services.

 

Milton Friedman once said that no one spends someone elses money as carefully as he spends his own. And that holds true. If there were food insurance and you had a 20 dollar co-pay, would you not get lobster and steak everytime at the grocerey store? In that same sense, when you go to the doctor, you get the "works" right? they do everything cuz you have insurance. That is one of the major factors of why health insurance is so expensive, and why services outside of health insurance are so expensive. The easiest comparison is the veterinary field. I can get major surgery on an animal for a thousand bucks, and the same surgery on a person withh the same instruments and materials costs 50,000 dollars.

 

In a world without insurance where people were thrifty, products and services were resonable and people were able to afford, or take out a loan to attain a major service. The dynamic has been shifted so that services are no longer cheap, but the solution is not and should not be the continuation of the very thing that caused it in the first place - the people spending money that isnt theirs.

 

Doctors do a battery of 'unnecessary' tests, because if they don't, and something untoward happens, they get sued. Malpractice insurance is a major driver of increasing healthcare costs.

[Quetzlsacatanango]

It's not a matter of having a say in exactly how each penny is spent, really. It's a matter of taking property from an individual with the threat of force.

A sales tax, for example, is not theft. You choose to pay it or not when you choose to purchase an item. Pretty darn hard to dodge it, too.

 

A sales tax is usually collected from the seller. It is definitely not a voluntary tax. You cannot tell the seller: "well, I don't want to pay it so let's just deduct it from the price, shall we?". I bet the seller will say: "Well, to be honest, I don't want to pay it either, but if you don't pay it, I will have to pay it to the government from my own purse because if I don't pay it, I will be prosecuted for violating the tax laws".

That is a good point, but you could change the collection method and keep the voluntary aspect of the tax intact.

 

 

It's not a matter of having a say in exactly how each penny is spent, really. It's a matter of taking property from an individual with the threat of force.

A sales tax, for example, is not theft. You choose to pay it or not when you choose to purchase an item. Pretty darn hard to dodge it, too.

Isn't it? You object to your tax dollars going to keep someone else alive. You regard it as "stealing". What's the difference between the government spending money for healthcare, and the government spending money on rebuilding some school in Iraq? Either way it is tax money being spent.

 

Also, if you wanna look at it that way (the sales tax example).... Income tax wouldn't be stealing either, as you could choose not to work.

 

It is not the use of the tax I am disputing. It is the fact that it is being collected at the point of a gun. Let me keep my money and give it to the charity of my choice. I will have more money, and you will still get health care you didn't earn.

 

You *could* choose not to work, but then when you go hunting for food, the IRS still sees the rabbit you snared as income, so the involuntary tax and the threat of force are still there.

[marharth]

You know, why do I have to use my hard earned money to help to pay for the damn government to protect everyone? If you suck so bad you can't get a job and pay for proper protection, its not our job to help ya.

 

I can protect myself, I have a rifle ya know!

 

 

Same goes with medical care, we don't need no government stealing our money. Its your own fault if you can't get no health care for yourself.

[PowderdToastMan]

@ Hey you

 

You do not know what you are talking about.

 

I can tell you from experience and first hand knowledge that you are wrong. Malpractice insurance is not even close to a major factor in why services cost so much.

 

The majority of money charged by the doctor does not go to malpractice insurance. That is a small fraction of the cost. You have been misled or simply assumed incorrectly.

 

A doctors office is a for-profit company, and they do all those unnecessary services because people understand that they are not picking up the tab. Which was my point that you completley ignored. - Ostrich technique i suppose.

 

IF you paid for every service out of pocket, you would pick and choose what you could afford.

 

The other reason why health insurance is so expensive is illegal immigration. It is why every border hospital in the country is bankrupt. That is why hospitals charge 10 dollars per cotton ball. Insurance companys are paying 10 dollars for a cotton ball and 15 dollars for a tongue depressor because they are the only ones paying a hospital bill ad thus keeping the hospital alive. In our border hospitals, 85-90% of the patients are illegal immigrants who do not pay for anything, and insurance companys are picking up the tab.

 

Please do not assume the things you conjure up in your head are correct.