What is more important, Justice or Mercy?

[marharth]

An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. These words aren't just an idle musing, it's a fact.

 

That's one of ghandi's worst platitudes and I think it's only ever even quoted because he was the one who said it.

For instance executing a murderer - okay, you've taken a life in response to the taking of a life, but whatabout the future victims you've saved?

 

When it's tempered, I also don't have any kind of problem with revenge.

It's just crappy, cereal packet feel-good philosophy being used to paint revenge, retribution, justice etc as something that the 'intellectual', 'civilised', all round good guys should regard as primitive and barbaric.

 

"justice" is just a cover so that society can pretend to be civilized when they exact their revenge? :D

 

In all reality, that works for me. So long as the revenge is proportional to the original crime. (see death penalty for stealing a car.....) I always though that would be good anyway.... Kill someone? You die. Steal from someone? You are forced to pay it back, or, work for the individual until the debt is paid. Beat the crap out of someone? hehehehehhe, several someones beat the crap out of you.... Etc. No need for prisons. Justice is swift, punishment inescapable, and when its done, its done. No more sitting in a nice warm cell for 30 years with other folks footing the bill.

But is that really a logical solution to the crime?

 

Is there a logical solution to crime?

 

I suppose, if we just started killing off the criminals, we would eventually run out, right? So, there wouldn't BE any more crime. That sounds logical, but, not a solution many would accept.

The human race has tried to kill off criminals before, it never worked. It is not logical since it doesn't work and it doesn't help the person affected.

 

Crime will always exist, its not about trying to stop it. It is about trying to prevent it as much as possible, and dealing with it correctly when something does happen.

[Sepherose]

Justice needs to be impartial so it can make a more clear decision on how merciful it can be.

Revenge is ruled by emotion and often starts a cycle of perpetuating itself.

 

The two are dramatically different, but anymore the latter is often mistaken for the former, or the former is often left behind so that a quick solution can be reached.

[kvnchrist]

An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. These words aren't just an idle musing, it's a fact.

 

That's one of ghandi's worst platitudes and I think it's only ever even quoted because he was the one who said it.

For instance executing a murderer - okay, you've taken a life in response to the taking of a life, but whatabout the future victims you've saved?

 

When it's tempered, I also don't have any kind of problem with revenge.

It's just crappy, cereal packet feel-good philosophy being used to paint revenge, retribution, justice etc as something that the 'intellectual', 'civilised', all round good guys should regard as primitive and barbaric.

 

"justice" is just a cover so that society can pretend to be civilized when they exact their revenge? :D

 

In all reality, that works for me. So long as the revenge is proportional to the original crime. (see death penalty for stealing a car.....) I always though that would be good anyway.... Kill someone? You die. Steal from someone? You are forced to pay it back, or, work for the individual until the debt is paid. Beat the crap out of someone? hehehehehhe, several someones beat the crap out of you.... Etc. No need for prisons. Justice is swift, punishment inescapable, and when its done, its done. No more sitting in a nice warm cell for 30 years with other folks footing the bill.

But is that really a logical solution to the crime?

 

Is crime logical?

 

Why should we as victims give perpetrators an easy out, so they can come back and do the same thing again?

 

These people don't care about others or they wouldn't do what they do. To try to create a sophisticated rational system to deal with unsophisticated irrational people is a good way to be used by these people, This is what we've been trying and all along they play the system like a fiddle and us like fools. It's time to look at victims rights. Unless we addrees that, then there will never be justice.

[marharth]

Is crime logical?

 

Why should we as victims give perpetrators an easy out, so they can come back and do the same thing again?

 

These people don't care about others or they wouldn't do what they do. To try to create a sophisticated rational system to deal with unsophisticated irrational people is a good way to be used by these people, This is what we've been trying and all along they play the system like a fiddle and us like fools. It's time to look at victims rights. Unless we addrees that, then there will never be justice.

Sometimes crime is logical. That is irrelevant though.

 

No. We need to figure out if the person will do the same thing again and decide on that.

 

That's not true. Some crimes will be a one time thing, not every criminal is a psychopath.

 

If you create a truely rational system you will be able to prepare for irrational people. Being irrational to deal with irrational people makes no sense.

 

That's not what we have been trying all along. Our criminal system is fueled by emotion and revenge, not wanting to fix the crimes committed on people. It is a emotional system, not a logical one.

 

What do you consider victims rights? Victims wanting to get revenge based on emotion?

[kvnchrist]

Is crime logical?

 

Why should we as victims give perpetrators an easy out, so they can come back and do the same thing again?

 

These people don't care about others or they wouldn't do what they do. To try to create a sophisticated rational system to deal with unsophisticated irrational people is a good way to be used by these people, This is what we've been trying and all along they play the system like a fiddle and us like fools. It's time to look at victims rights. Unless we addrees that, then there will never be justice.

Sometimes crime is logical. That is irrelevant though.

 

No. We need to figure out if the person will do the same thing again and decide on that.

 

That's not true. Some crimes will be a one time thing, not every criminal is a psychopath.

 

If you create a truely rational system you will be able to prepare for irrational people. Being irrational to deal with irrational people makes no sense.

 

That's not what we have been trying all along. Our criminal system is fueled by emotion and revenge, not wanting to fix the crimes committed on people. It is a emotional system, not a logical one.

 

What do you consider victims rights? Victims wanting to get revenge based on emotion?

 

 

Crime is never logical, and it is relivant, so please don't dismiss my argument like that.

 

Crime is due to people taking the easy way out. It is as cut and dry as that. We don't need to find out if anybody will try the same illegal behavior again, at all, since we know they've stooped to doing it once, what will keep them from doing it again.

 

Being rational to irrational people is what the U.N. has tried with Saddam and Iraq. Tell me, how has that worked out?

 

Victims rights are what justice needs to be, about. They are the victims. What did they do to deserve what happened to them?

[marharth]

Is crime logical?

 

Why should we as victims give perpetrators an easy out, so they can come back and do the same thing again?

 

These people don't care about others or they wouldn't do what they do. To try to create a sophisticated rational system to deal with unsophisticated irrational people is a good way to be used by these people, This is what we've been trying and all along they play the system like a fiddle and us like fools. It's time to look at victims rights. Unless we addrees that, then there will never be justice.

Sometimes crime is logical. That is irrelevant though.

 

No. We need to figure out if the person will do the same thing again and decide on that.

 

That's not true. Some crimes will be a one time thing, not every criminal is a psychopath.

 

If you create a truely rational system you will be able to prepare for irrational people. Being irrational to deal with irrational people makes no sense.

 

That's not what we have been trying all along. Our criminal system is fueled by emotion and revenge, not wanting to fix the crimes committed on people. It is a emotional system, not a logical one.

 

What do you consider victims rights? Victims wanting to get revenge based on emotion?

 

 

Crime is never logical, and it is relivant, so please don't dismiss my argument like that.

 

Crime is due to people taking the easy way out. It is as cut and dry as that. We don't need to find out if anybody will try the same illegal behavior again, at all, since we know they've stooped to doing it once, what will keep them from doing it again.

 

Being rational to irrational people is what the U.N. has tried with Saddam and Iraq. Tell me, how has that worked out?

 

Victims rights are what justice needs to be, about. They are the victims. What did they do to deserve what happened to them?

What does it matter? Crime is logical in the sense of helping yourself. People get away with crimes all the time.

 

A lot of people have broken the law at some point in their life. It doesn't not instantly mean they are a repeat offender.

 

What are you suggesting? Throwing logic out the window and stooping down to their level? Look how that turned how with Saddam and Iraq when Cheney and Bush had that idea.

 

Vitim didn't do anything to deserve it, you are correct. That does not mean the victim should inflict the same thing on the criminal.

[HeyYou]

Crime is logical? That's like saying "Politicians are logical". THEY keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results, how is that logical? Criminals break the law because someone else has something they want, and they aren't willing to work for it, like everyone else. They want it NOW, and damn the torpedoes. The "justice" system as it is now is illogical. There is no justice, there is no revenge, there is no rehabilitation, there is no 'lesson learned'. (aside from altering the way crimes are committed the next time, so they are less likely to be caught.) Saddam wasn't a criminal in the sense that I am using the word here. (and the whole: America: World Police, thing is another topic entirely) I am dealing with crimes/criminals within our own borders here. Tin Pot dictators are another subject altogether.... (but, just as an aside, if we were so hot and heavy to "get Saddam" because he 'might' be developing WMD's, why do we not invade N. Korea, whom we know FOR A FACT are developing nukes? Hint: N. Korea doesn't have any OIL.)

 

What do criminals understand? They understand how to work the system as it currently is, in our "no one is really responsible for their own actions" based society. They can whine and cry about how society mistreated/misunderstands them, and get a plea bargain down to next to nothing. Wanna Kill someone? Get drunk, and run 'em over with your car. Claim it was 'an accident'. If you do two years, I would be surprised. But, what happens to the family of the person that is now dead? They are left to their own devices. Some drunk whacks a father of four, with a wife...... he was the sole income...... drunkard gets off with a little bit of time, the remaining family is left to sink or swim on their own, and the killer bears no responsibility to them at all. He walks free, while children are raised by mom, without dad. You consider that JUSTICE? I sure as hades don't.

[marharth]

Crime is logical? That's like saying "Politicians are logical". THEY keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results, how is that logical? Criminals break the law because someone else has something they want, and they aren't willing to work for it, like everyone else. They want it NOW, and damn the torpedoes. The "justice" system as it is now is illogical. There is no justice, there is no revenge, there is no rehabilitation, there is no 'lesson learned'. (aside from altering the way crimes are committed the next time, so they are less likely to be caught.) Saddam wasn't a criminal in the sense that I am using the word here. (and the whole: America: World Police, thing is another topic entirely) I am dealing with crimes/criminals within our own borders here. Tin Pot dictators are another subject altogether.... (but, just as an aside, if we were so hot and heavy to "get Saddam" because he 'might' be developing WMD's, why do we not invade N. Korea, whom we know FOR A FACT are developing nukes? Hint: N. Korea doesn't have any OIL.)

 

What do criminals understand? They understand how to work the system as it currently is, in our "no one is really responsible for their own actions" based society. They can whine and cry about how society mistreated/misunderstands them, and get a plea bargain down to next to nothing. Wanna Kill someone? Get drunk, and run 'em over with your car. Claim it was 'an accident'. If you do two years, I would be surprised. But, what happens to the family of the person that is now dead? They are left to their own devices. Some drunk whacks a father of four, with a wife...... he was the sole income...... drunkard gets off with a little bit of time, the remaining family is left to sink or swim on their own, and the killer bears no responsibility to them at all. He walks free, while children are raised by mom, without dad. You consider that JUSTICE? I sure as hades don't.

Politicians certainly know how to help themselves right? Crime is logical depending on your goals. If your goal is personal gain, certain crimes are the best way to get that.

 

We both agree the system is broken.

 

If a man kills someone, it shouldn't matter how they killed the person. Lets say a man hits someone with a car by accident. The person he hit was a father. What good comes from sending him to prison? Make the person pay monthly checks to the family to indirectly support them. Have the person closely watched at all times.

 

If there is no evidence the person who committed the crime will not be a repeat offender, there is no reason to lock them up. It costs tax dollars and is a complete waste. If you want to have justice served, make the person literally pay for what he did, not simply rot away in a cage.

[kvnchrist]

Is crime logical?

 

Why should we as victims give perpetrators an easy out, so they can come back and do the same thing again?

 

These people don't care about others or they wouldn't do what they do. To try to create a sophisticated rational system to deal with unsophisticated irrational people is a good way to be used by these people, This is what we've been trying and all along they play the system like a fiddle and us like fools. It's time to look at victims rights. Unless we addrees that, then there will never be justice.

Sometimes crime is logical. That is irrelevant though.

 

No. We need to figure out if the person will do the same thing again and decide on that.

 

That's not true. Some crimes will be a one time thing, not every criminal is a psychopath.

 

If you create a truely rational system you will be able to prepare for irrational people. Being irrational to deal with irrational people makes no sense.

 

That's not what we have been trying all along. Our criminal system is fueled by emotion and revenge, not wanting to fix the crimes committed on people. It is a emotional system, not a logical one.

 

What do you consider victims rights? Victims wanting to get revenge based on emotion?

 

 

Crime is never logical, and it is relivant, so please don't dismiss my argument like that.

 

Crime is due to people taking the easy way out. It is as cut and dry as that. We don't need to find out if anybody will try the same illegal behavior again, at all, since we know they've stooped to doing it once, what will keep them from doing it again.

 

Being rational to irrational people is what the U.N. has tried with Saddam and Iraq. Tell me, how has that worked out?

 

Victims rights are what justice needs to be, about. They are the victims. What did they do to deserve what happened to them?

What does it matter? Crime is logical in the sense of helping yourself. People get away with crimes all the time.

 

A lot of people have broken the law at some point in their life. It doesn't not instantly mean they are a repeat offender.

 

What are you suggesting? Throwing logic out the window and stooping down to their level? Look how that turned how with Saddam and Iraq when Cheney and Bush had that idea.

 

Vitim didn't do anything to deserve it, you are correct. That does not mean the victim should inflict the same thing on the criminal.

 

 

Dude, You have a logical mind. Therefore you think everything has a logical remedy. You are completely out of your element, when you discuss criminal behavior. I live with criminals. My whole family that my brother married into is nothing more than Thug, crackhead, trailer trash. Their is nothing logical about what they do and how they go about it. They are opportunists that take advantage of every opening they can find to exploit. They are about as logical as a chicken on acid!

 

You are on a completely different level than they are and I'd really hate to clean you up after they proved me right on this.

 

First place don't try a red herring like that on me, about Dick Chaney and IRAQ. that was nothing more than two opportunists exploiting a situation to get rid of an irritant. The situation was 9/11 and they tried to kill two birds with the same stone. All they did is spread themselves out and extend a the true conflict out far longer than it should. That had nothing to do with anything we are talking about. It wasn't logical or illogical. It was a power grab by a pipe dreamer.

 

And please stop inserting revenge for justice. It seems you think criminals need to analyzed like lab rats. I think you are trying to thread a needle with a electron microscope. Sometimes the things you search for is right in front of your nose

[marharth]

Dude, You have a logical mind. Therefore you think everything has a logical remedy. You are completely out of your element, when you discuss criminal behavior. I live with criminals. My whole family that my brother married into is nothing more than Thug, crackhead, trailer trash. Their is nothing logical about what they do and how they go about it. They are opportunists that take advantage of every opening they can find to exploit. They are about as logical as a chicken on acid!

 

You are on a completely different level than they are and I'd really hate to clean you up after they proved me right on this.

 

First place don't try a red herring like that on me, about Dick Chaney and IRAQ. that was nothing more than two opportunists exploiting a situation to get rid of an irritant. The situation was 9/11 and they tried to kill two birds with the same stone. All they did is spread themselves out and extend a the true conflict out far longer than it should. That had nothing to do with anything we are talking about. It wasn't logical or illogical. It was a power grab by a pipe dreamer.

 

And please stop inserting revenge for justice. It seems you think criminals need to analyzed like lab rats. I think you are trying to thread a needle with a electron microscope. Sometimes the things you search for is right in front of your nose

It depends on the situation. Logical criminals are the people in office, or the people who make laws to be sure they don't get caught. Its a different scale yes, but crime can still be logical depending on how you deal with it.

 

Criminals should be analyzed. One time offenders will not always commit a crime again. If someone robs a store once and gets caught, it does not mean they will go off robbing more stores.