dazzerfong Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Using deadly force is not definitive: firing until the perp stops is. Read my post about the Mozambique drill: if they are 'shooting to kill', police officers would do that. But they don't, the goal is incapacitation which may induce death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marharth Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Using deadly force is not definitive: firing until the perp stops is. Read my post about the Mozambique drill: if they are 'shooting to kill', police officers would do that. But they don't, the goal is incapacitation which may induce death.Does anyone actually disagree with that? I don't see why anyone would kill someone after they are completely disarmed and incapacitated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korodic Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I need guns to (1) protect me from the government and (2) from anyone that already has one. In a perfect world, we would have no guns, but int hat perfect world (without any guns) someone would probably just crack my head open with a baseball bat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syco21 Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I need guns to (1) protect me from the government and (2) from anyone that already has one. In a perfect world, we would have no guns, but int hat perfect world (without any guns) someone would probably just crack my head open with a baseball bat.Cain and Seth anyone? Perfect world, no murder, no crime. Then one day, BAM! Brother kills brother. That argument only works if the person you're talking to believes in the bible. But I liked the idea anyway. :biggrin: @Aurielius Depending on what state you live in, you will be judged by twelve, then carried by six. @MajKrAzAm The distinction is important to remember if ever you find yourself in a self defense shooting. It wont matter one iota if you shoot to kill in a perfectly legal manner. That intent will be used against you and you can find yourself brought up on murder charges. Logic does not bode well under law. Hostile prosecutors will use whatever they can to secure a conviction. A shot to the head or to the extremities can both be seen as excessive force. If you shoot someone to wound them, a skilled DA might argue that you weren't in fear of your life and as such not protected under self defense laws. Further, if the individual dies, even if they wouldn't have or couldn't have argued the above, they could still bring you up on involuntary manslaughter. Do not make the mistake of thinking the law is on your side, it is not. My advice stems not from silly ideals, but from real world incidents.There is so much bad advice on self defense, so much misinformation. I have heard police officers and police chiefs give advice that will send you straight to death row. I'm not claiming conspiracy, it's simply that they don't know any better themselves. Yes, cops know just as much about the law as most of us. They're not lawyers, and they are prone to giving terrible, dangerous advice. I winch every time I hear someone repeat the utterly horrendous advice of 'drag the perp inside after you shoot them.' And people actually believe this! :wallbash: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurielius Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 @Aurielius Depending on what state you live in, you will be judged by twelve, then carried by six. Sigh..since you checked my profile then you should know I'm from Pennsylvania and in this state once the intruder crosses your threshold , you only have to BELIEVE that you are in imminent danger to use deadly force. Actual fact checking might be helpful before making such droll counter claims. Two rounds is not excessive use of a firearm at least so our DA stated in the last several self defense assertions, it's only when someone empties the clip and reloads and fires again outside their home at a retreating intruder that some question is raised as to state of mind. Pennsylvania is an Open Carry friendly state and I have a legal carry permit. Your attempt to impose a philosophical governor to what is essentially a snap judgment call makes your ownership of a gun more hazardous to yourself than your intruder ( who has no such qualms), moral reflections are nice but hardly the stuff that is going to keep you alive. As I said we will remember to say that you were very upright and morally conscious in your eulogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syco21 Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Once again, my position has nothing to do with morals. I direct you to the family values thread where I clearly stated that I reject the ideology of morality. This is a legal matter. Shooting someone twice is one thing. Shooting them again 'because they twitch' is an entirely different matter. Further, you failed to comprehend what I've said. I did not say that shooting someone was excessive force, nor did I state that I view it as excessive force. I've stated that shooting someone in the head or extremities could be seen as excessive force by a hostile DA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazzerfong Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) Aurelius, calm down. No-one's accusing anyone of anything, we're just implicating the 'lose-lose' scenarios of self-defense. Though, in my opinion, if you load an entire magazine on someone, that's overkill. One or two, even three is called being 'safe'. I read your profile, apparently, you're US Navy. In that, I understand your need for ever-present alert, but have you considered that sometimes guns just makes everything worse? Edited January 26, 2012 by dazzerfong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marharth Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Aurelius, calm down. No-one's accusing anyone of anything, we're just implicating the 'lose-lose' scenarios of self-defense. Though, in my opinion, if you load an entire magazine on someone, that's overkill. One or two, even three is called being 'safe'. Though, if you really think that you could whip out a gun every time someone jumps you, I will pay you $400 up-front. I'm not kidding. I highly doubt one's reflexes are that quick anyway to begin with.I am pretty sure that if someone is charging at you with a knife you won't have enough time to get draw and get your gun ready anyways. I don't even think reflexes matter here. Unless you walk around with a fully loaded gun with the safety off at all times you won't have much luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurielius Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) Aurelius, calm down. No-one's accusing anyone of anything, we're just implicating the 'lose-lose' scenarios of self-defense. Though, in my opinion, if you load an entire magazine on someone, that's overkill. One or two, even three is called being 'safe'. I read your profile, apparently, you're US Navy. In that, I understand your need for ever-present alert, but have you considered that sometimes guns just makes everything worse?LOL..I am calm and not an advocate of shoot first no matter what, but I do have some experience at making fast choices when it was necessary and am not reticent if needs be. I still think retreat if an option is the best course, when it isn't then you do what is necessary. Actually since most confrontations are at 20' and under if I can't hit what I'm aiming at with the first double tap then I shouldn't carry at all, fair enough? Edited January 26, 2012 by Aurielius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisnpuppy Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Aurelius, calm down. No-one's accusing anyone of anything, we're just implicating the 'lose-lose' scenarios of self-defense. Though, in my opinion, if you load an entire magazine on someone, that's overkill. One or two, even three is called being 'safe'. Though, if you really think that you could whip out a gun every time someone jumps you, I will pay you $400 up-front. I'm not kidding. I highly doubt one's reflexes are that quick anyway to begin with.I am pretty sure that if someone is charging at you with a knife you won't have enough time to get draw and get your gun ready anyways. I don't even think reflexes matter here. Unless you walk around with a fully loaded gun with the safety off at all times you won't have much luck. You ever hear about the guy who brought the knife to a gun fight? *grin* :teehee: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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