Guns or not Guns

[Syco21]

@ Syco:

 

Sure, normal untrained civilians could let alone carry a gun and not wet themselves in time to pull out their pistols and try to shoot the guy who has an AR-10. I'm not saying it could not have prevented it, but the other potential consequences are much worse.

University of Texas, Austin Campus. Charles Whitman makes his way to the top of the clock tower and opens fire on students below. Students, rather than pissing themselves, run to their trucks, retrieve their rifles and return fire. Afterwards, they are credited by some of the officers responsible for apprehending the shooters as having helped save lives and made it possible for the officers to neutralize the gunman.

 

Pearl High School, Luke Woodham kills his mother, steals her car and drives to the high school. Open arriving at the school, he opens fire, killing several students and wounding many more. The assistant principal, Joel Myrick, rushes to his car, retrieves his .45 pistol from his glove box and confronts Woodham as he is attempting to leave. Woodham had planned on heading straight for the local middle school to continue the shooting, had he not been stopped by Myrick.

 

Player's Bar & Grill, Winnemucca, Arizona. Ernesto Villa Gomez entered a bar and began shooting, he killed three people and injured two others. As he was reloading an unidentified man seized the opportunity to shoot Gomez ending his killing spree long before the police could arrive.

 

Is three examples enough? I could keep going.

 

Proof, or you're lying.

I provide a link that has proof. But does not matter, because I provide two more above.

 

And yes, I am aware that gun ownership is a hobby: I have a R93 even though it's nothing in terms of grouping compared to my Model 44. However, when you own a GPMG, shouldn't you know, well, disable the gun first?

Why? They wont magically go bang bang, and even if they just started randomly firing, you don't store them loaded. So what's the point? OR did you mean permanently? What's the point in owning a $30k paperweight?

Edited January 27, 2012 by Syco21

[dazzerfong]

If he had a knife, and you happened to be carrying a pistol, if you whipped out your pistol and shot him, you'd be in serious legal issues for excessive force. I understand that in that situation, a gun would be ideal, but what would happen if you accidentally shot someone else instead?

 

Yes, but does that necessitate conceal-carry? That's the issue right now, I have no qualms carrying firearms around in a car.

Edited January 27, 2012 by dazzerfong

[RZ1029]

If he had a knife, and you happened to be carrying a pistol, if you whipped out your pistol and shot him, you'd be in serious legal issues for excessive force. I understand that in that situation, a gun would be ideal, but what would happen if you accidentally shot someone else instead?

 

Yes, but does that necessitate conceal-carry? That's the issue right now, I have no qualms carrying firearms around in a car.

Ummm... no. If he has a knife and you believe your life is in danger, in MOST states, you are in your legal right to act with deadly force. It's called, broadly, a Castle doctrine, though that more particularly applies to the defense of homes, cars, any 'currently occupied dwelling' or something of the sorts. I'm too tired to get into the legal jargon.

 

If you accidentally shot someone else, you would be held responsible for something like manslaughter or something like that, which may or may not end up being cleared, depending upon the exact circumstances, varying stat laws, et cetera. Also... I don't really see how this would happen with even the most basic of training. Not saying it can't, just that I don't see how, as a responsible and practiced firearm owner.

 

And yes, concealed-carry. That includes carrying firearms in cars, if you didn't know. In North Carolina, I cannot carry a pistol in my vehicle (without a concealed carry, which I have) unless it is either 1) unloaded, locked in a case, and stored in like, say, my trunk, or 2) loaded, in plain sight, on my seat next to me. But the thing is, I'm far more likely to be jumped walking down a street than some guy walking up to my F-150 Super Duty and being like 'hey man... give me your money or I'm gonna shoot you'.

 

I'm all for armed citizens, but I am not at all in favor of zero regulation, like some are. Registration of firearms, concealed carry classes, et cetera, background checks, and I'd even say mental evaluations to be sure they are, in fact, fit to own a firearm. However, I also would rather bring the age for concealed carry down to 18, in addition to the purchase of pistols from FFL-holders. I'm also for the carry of firearms on college campuses, especially by ROTC/BLET (Military to-be and police-to-be, for foreigners unfamiliar with those acronyms, not sure how they translate outside the US) programs, or anyone else willing to through the proper licensing and paperwork required to legally own and carry a pistol.

 

I'm proud to say that I think North Carolina has pretty good firearms laws, our 'crimes involving a firearm' are actually somewhat high, but mostly due to poaching, not murder. What can I say, "good 'ole boys" like their hunting, regardless of season.

 

And now, I'm off to bed. I bid you all adieu, and good night, or morning, whichever comes first.

[dazzerfong]

Thought that conceal-carry was only on the body, but even in those civilian scenarios, how hard would it be to open up a gun-case? Takes 10 seconds at most, and those times, it wasn't a life-or-death race to reach the weapon.

 

However, the Castle doctrine extends only to your house or property: what happens if you're not in it? Your 'car' is not your residence. AND, since you live in NC, here's the excerpt:

This section is not intended to repeal, expand, or limit any other defense that may exist under the common law.

 

You're still potentially liable in the end: you can't just claim that and get away with it.

 

Self-defense in Australia is a bit more complicated, unfortunately: if, say, he has a knife, you could only use a knife at most. The only use for a gun is to threaten them, but not actually follow through with the threat. HOWEVER, if, say, you're in a desert, and you get jumped, and the only thing you have is a gun, and the perp has a knife, you can use your gun.

[antonkr]

It seems people think of self defense red tape. When really if someone points a knife at you, even if you live in a country with 'silly' self defense laws, I would worry about it later. All I really would want would be to stop the attacker, worry about red-tape later.

[Syco21]

Carry around a gun case? That'd be like carrying around a purse, if the purse was made of gold and guaranteed to have a crapload of cash money in it. And 10 seconds is a long time, time you may not have.A gun is safe when properly secured in a good holster. That's the safest way to carry.

 

IDK about NC law, but Castle Doctrine is a no duty to retreat law. And is not limited to your home or car, but can be expanded to any place you have a legal right to be. Whether it the side of the supermarket or your home.

 

Self defense law in the states typically says at minimum that you may use deadly force to counter deadly force. And generally describes deadly force as force that is reasonably believed to cause serious bodily injury including, but not limited to, death. A knife certainly falls under that parameter.

 

Australian laws are whack and need to be changed. I'm unfamiliar with Australian SD laws, so I can not speak for them. But citizens should always be afforded the best tools to defend themselves should the need ever arise.

 

Does the threat of a car accident necessitate seat belts? Airbags?

 

And for the record, I would prefer to open carry. Something which has stopped armed robberies before they even started.

[RZ1029]

Carry around a gun case? That'd be like carrying around a purse, if the purse was made of gold and guaranteed to have a crapload of cash money in it. And 10 seconds is a long time, time you may not have.A gun is safe when properly secured in a good holster. That's the safest way to carry.

 

IDK about NC law, but Castle Doctrine is a no duty to retreat law. And is not limited to your home or car, but can be expanded to any place you have a legal right to be. Whether it the side of the supermarket or your home.

 

Self defense law in the states typically says at minimum that you may use deadly force to counter deadly force. And generally describes deadly force as force that is reasonably believed to cause serious bodily injury including, but not limited to, death. A knife certainly falls under that parameter.

 

Does the threat of a car accident necessitate seat belts? Airbags?

 

And for the record, I would prefer to open carry. Something which has stopped armed robberies before they even started.

Syco hit the nail on the head, on all counts. I'm almost on board with the open carry, except some associated social stigma that currently exists with it, which is just an easy way to get yourself labeled as an 'extremist'.

 

The gun case I mentioned it had to be LOCKED in, in your TRUNK, UNLOADED. 'Bro, gimme a sec to get out of my car, get to my trunk, unlock it, unlock my gun case, load my pistol and THEN you can hold me up, alright?' I don't think that's how these things work.

 

And he's right again, Castle Doctrine in North Carolina (not all states have No Duty to Retreat, though they still call them Castle Doctrines) doesn't require you to retreat, and does extend to anywhere you are, so long as you are there legally.

[Shantih]

Obviously you have not read the posts by the two vets. Both have stated that they feel safe and are comfortable leaving their doors unlocked. Owning a firearm for self defense is not about fear. It's about realizing that something can happen and being prepared for it.

 

Knowing bad things can happen and being prepared for it if something does happen is not the same as constantly fearing that it will happen. Should I not wear a seat belt whilst I drive because I do not constantly fear that I am going to have a wreck?

 

I get that you consider your gun to be around for your safety but it doesn't change the fact that it's fundamentally different from a seat belt, i.e. your seat belt was never designed to kill someone.

 

That's why that comparison is biased.

 

Would you say that keeping a gun at home is the same as having a first aid kit?

 

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

[KennethKarl]

I am against the illegal gun trade. I myself am 21 and carry a .38 revolver with me. I haven't gone crazy and killed anyone or myself yet. I am not a maniacal gun nut who will blow someones head off if they insult my girlfriends honor (No offence to you Andrew Jackson). I live in Jacksonville Florida, a lovely town with the charm of a small city, and the murder rate of a metropolis. Because of my line of work I have to go to some unpleasent areas of town. I want to be able to defend my life and possessions. A man who cannot defend his possessions has no possessions.

[Aurielius]

I am against the illegal gun trade. I myself am 21 and carry a .38 revolver with me. I haven't gone crazy and killed anyone or myself yet. I am not a maniacal gun nut who will blow someones head off if they insult my girlfriends honor (No offence to you Andrew Jackson). I live in Jacksonville Florida, a lovely town with the charm of a small city, and the murder rate of a metropolis. Because of my line of work I have to go to some unpleasent areas of town. I want to be able to defend my life and possessions. A man who cannot defend his possessions has no possessions.

I believe that Jackson shot the insulting party from the veranda of the White House, he took Rachel's (his wife) honor very seriously. When all men were armed it payed to have good manners since a breach of that could be your last 'faux pas'. He was without a doubt the best shot to ever hold the office of president.