Is chivilery dead

[kvnchrist]

Has the advancement in the counter culture and the thriving attraction to leach of the the social programs, by those capable of working, placing a tombstone on the ideal of chivalry. Has more liberal views of the roles of men and women, in our society made such ideals archaic?

 

Are many of the young ladies of today excepting less responsible and less driven young men into their hearts and into their beds. If they are, is this lowering of standards, attributable to self esteem issues or are they looking more for those young men, with the bad boy image?

 

No matter what, Is this lowering of standards, teaching their children that in order to be a real man, you are to lay around the house, playing games, while the women work.?

 

This might not fit for those here, since the education level here is far above the mainstream. I am looking at society as a whole.

 

I find myself wondering what social programs and the desire to work or not, or in fact the ability to actually be able to find work, has to do with good manners and standards of decency. I read your post several times and it still seems to me that it's implying people of a lower socioeconomic status are the ones who lack or have lost these social skills. The question should cover all levels of social status not just the those on welfare, whether they are in that situation by design or circumstance.

 

I know people who left their "chivalry' behind when they climbed the corporate ladder stepping over anyone who didn't, and don't fit with their social status. One being a family member who went from a kind and thoughtful person to a selfish and money driven individual in an executive position who wouldn't give you the time of day unless you paid him.

 

I also don't see what education level, especially combined with the social programs scenario has to do with basic manners and decent behaviour either. Basic decency and knowing inside oneself when something is right or wrong is a trait that's inherent in a person's nature, no matter what kind of upbringing a person has had. I'm not talking about law and regulations imposed by government or society itself, but simple human behaviour. Manners and general courtesy aren't things that can be learned except by rote and example. It's not necessarily always genuine either when they don't come naturally or are forced.

 

Speaking for myself, I think the true definition of chivalry as mentioned by grannywils, causes more harm than good in today's society. It still carries the implication that women are less intelligent, more fragile than men and should be hidden away as well as unheard and thought of as property. That type of archaic attitude is more often than not a false sense of superiority and fear disguised as caring and protection.

 

Not that I think this is what you meant kvnchrist, as the real meaning of the word chivalry is quite different than what it seems you were asking. Society as a whole should be aiming for respect on all levels, not dependent on gender or any other social status. As long as that respect is warranted and earned by all sides of course.

 

@ HeyYou

 

Yes. As the saying goes "a smile is worth a thousand words." A simple and free thing that feels good and brings delight to many. :)

 

 

I think you are reading more into my post than is there. Chivalry also means being a productive member of society, supporting it as much as you can. There is a lot of people who are more interested in what it can get out of society than they can give back. This is absolutely across the socioeconomic spectrum.

[Lisnpuppy]

I guess I will jump in here.

 

I do think what the OP is talking about is manners and the like. Maybe Chivalry wasn't the exact word as it does bring to mind other things, but regardless...I too think manners are dying because parents can't be bothered to teach them to their children. Polite actions and good behavior is one of the things that make civilization bearable.

 

As I am trying to teach my child, My Mother once taught me. I can still feel the back of her hand smacking my head if I would forget to open the door for my elders, call someone Mr. or Mrs. even after being told it was ok not to do so. I enjoy seeing the look of surprise when my daughter opens doors. Do we always get a thank you...no...its nice when we do but that isn't why I do it. If I do not get a thanks I will smile and say loudly, "You're welcome!" Maybe throw in a little wave all the wile showing my dimples.

 

Being a woman I was taught and believe that I should be able to take care of myself NO MATTER WHAT. Man or no man, parents, kids...whatever. When I know that I am able to do this it makes the personal relationships I have more satisfactory as the "bread winner" and the care-taker burden is relieved. I also know if that significant other should go that I can take care of myself and don't have to stay in a possible unhappy situation due to being between a rock and a hard place.

 

As far as simple polite....I am grateful if someone is nice and opens a door or offers to help me carry something. Living in the South, things like manners exist more than other places I think. Living away from large cities also helps. When I travel I always get looks...but I find that doing a random act of kindness is catching and soon those around you will come along.

 

As for being taken care of or a man finding women weak...well I like to think I am smart enough to see who is who and what is what. If a man wants to take care of me..I will let him to a point. As long as its understood I can do the same at times. I have no issue with a Mother working and the Father staying home with the children. What I do have an issue with is basic disrespect and prejudice.

 

As for how women let some men treat them. Young women I find are fairly stupid and find the "bad boy" interesting. They usually get smarter. In my personal opinion most men don't settle down and want a family until they are a bit older which is fine. Also I think our entertainment industry has made millions off "watching the train wrecks" of peoples "reality tv" lives. I believe there are many people that think dysfunctional relationships and drama are the norm...when to me and I am sure many others...they are not.

 

Personally I don't care what people think about me being polite. I don't wonder about those around me that are also polite, what possible machinations they may have. I just smile and thank them...my day maybe being just a little easier because of someone's willingness to be kind. Hopefully my actions will do the same for someone else.

 

Is chivalry dead....well the old fashion definition is I think. Is common politeness dead...no..but we all could stop thinking about everything and just do it. Be kind and the kindness will grow.

[DeadMansFist849]

Just to clarify my position:

 

I don't think chivalry is the same as being well-mannered and self-reliant. Those concepts are all rather different to me.

 

"Chivalry", as commonly used, means putting women on a pedestal and giving them special treatment out of a belief that they're weak.

 

"Manners", again as commonly used, means being polite to people in general.

 

 

"Chivalry" is not something I give my support to because I find it completely counterproductive to fixing social problems. "Manners", however, are important and seem to be sorely lacking rather a lot of the time!

[draconix]

Chivalry is not the fluff you find in women's romance novels... That's something else altogether.

 

The traditional sense of chivalry is something else altogether, it's more like a European "Bushido," or a standard of conduct among knights. Things like not stabbing someone in the back, don't kick a man when he's down. Above all though, I think it's also the ingrained personalty trait that urges oneself to do heroic things, without the motivation of a reward or payment. Sometimes that involves saving damsels in distress, other times it involves carrying people out of a burning building, sometimes it involves rescuing flood victims.

 

I think that's still around.

Edited October 3, 2011 by draconix

[Aurielius]

Chivalry is not the fluff you find in women's romance novels... That's something else altogether.

 

The traditional sense of chivalry is something else altogether, it's more like a European "Bushido," or a standard of conduct among knights. Things like not stabbing someone in the back, don't kick a man when he's down. Above all though, I think it's also the ingrained personalty trait that urges oneself to do heroic things, without the motivation of a reward or payment. Sometimes that involves saving damsels in distress, other times it involves carrying people out of a burning building, sometimes it involves rescuing flood victims.

 

I think that's still around.

Though I almost never agree with you, this time I can. Chivalry is a code of conduct that one aspires to.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Aurielius

[grannywils]

Draconix and Aurielius, although I do not disagree that what you have both described above is something profoundly admirable, I do believe that you are discussing character rather than mere chivalry. In my opinion character goes much deeper. I think of chivalry more as behaviour and character more as one's true humanity and persona. This is of course just my personal opinion.

[Aurielius]

Draconix and Aurielius, although I do not disagree that what you have both described above is something profoundly admirable, I do believe that you are discussing character rather than mere chivalry. In my opinion character goes much deeper. I think of chivalry more as behaviour and character more as one's true humanity and persona. This is of course just my personal opinion.

There were always good and not so good knights, the trick is to be one of the good ones...

[Balagor]

"The beginnings of Western Chivalry originated in the martial spirit, especially of the Germanic tribes. To idealize and control their aggressiveness, the Christian Church give the warrior the task of protecting Christianity. Thus, Chivalry came under the control of Christianity. To this extent, Chivalry was closely linked to religion. For example, the Crusaders had a large cross emblazoned on the front of their tunics.

 

Bushido and Chivalry shared the virtues of Bravery and Loyalty. Other virtues included Benevolence, Politeness and Honor. All virtues were “controlled” by uniting them based on Justice. Bravery was the foremost virtue of Chivalry; while Loyalty was the top virtue of Bushido. In Japan, “loyalty” meant devotion to a lord or the Emperor (in later times). In the West, the devotion was to Christianity. For Bushido, Bravery was the second virtue."

 

This is a part of an article written by Joel Cohen from Classical Sogo Warrior Martial Sciences. The article contains historical religion. All article is here:My link

 

Chivalry is dead over here in DK, and that´s good. Not that I´m a selfish dude minding my own buissness. ´We are not black and white here. There are still some litte old ladys who was brought up with this, and I just love to carry their groceries, hold doors (they are not afraid of me despite my very long hair), and then they reply with a "Nice to see gentlemen still exists"

I also get up and leave a seat for the elder and weaker, and being old myself, I´m looking foreward to soon it will be my turn that other will get up and leave the seat for and old hippie like me . :whistling:

I have seen that there are still some young fragile little princesses playing around with the guys, loving to be "waited on". Well if they like that, and the guys love it, let them. We do what we want to, we have the fredom to set our lives our self. We are not alike.

[pseudobio]

I guess I will jump in here.

 

I do think what the OP is talking about is manners and the like. Maybe Chivalry wasn't the exact word as it does bring to mind other things, but regardless...I too think manners are dying because parents can't be bothered to teach them to their children. Polite actions and good behavior is one of the things that make civilization bearable.

 

As I am trying to teach my child, My Mother once taught me. I can still feel the back of her hand smacking my head if I would forget to open the door for my elders, call someone Mr. or Mrs. even after being told it was ok not to do so. I enjoy seeing the look of surprise when my daughter opens doors. Do we always get a thank you...no...its nice when we do but that isn't why I do it. If I do not get a thanks I will smile and say loudly, "You're welcome!" Maybe throw in a little wave all the wile showing my dimples.

 

Being a woman I was taught and believe that I should be able to take care of myself NO MATTER WHAT. Man or no man, parents, kids...whatever. When I know that I am able to do this it makes the personal relationships I have more satisfactory as the "bread winner" and the care-taker burden is relieved. I also know if that significant other should go that I can take care of myself and don't have to stay in a possible unhappy situation due to being between a rock and a hard place.

 

As far as simple polite....I am grateful if someone is nice and opens a door or offers to help me carry something. Living in the South, things like manners exist more than other places I think. Living away from large cities also helps. When I travel I always get looks...but I find that doing a random act of kindness is catching and soon those around you will come along.

 

As for being taken care of or a man finding women weak...well I like to think I am smart enough to see who is who and what is what. If a man wants to take care of me..I will let him to a point. As long as its understood I can do the same at times. I have no issue with a Mother working and the Father staying home with the children. What I do have an issue with is basic disrespect and prejudice.

 

As for how women let some men treat them. Young women I find are fairly stupid and find the "bad boy" interesting. They usually get smarter. In my personal opinion most men don't settle down and want a family until they are a bit older which is fine. Also I think our entertainment industry has made millions off "watching the train wrecks" of peoples "reality tv" lives. I believe there are many people that think dysfunctional relationships and drama are the norm...when to me and I am sure many others...they are not.

 

Personally I don't care what people think about me being polite. I don't wonder about those around me that are also polite, what possible machinations they may have. I just smile and thank them...my day maybe being just a little easier because of someone's willingness to be kind. Hopefully my actions will do the same for someone else.

 

Is chivalry dead....well the old fashion definition is I think. Is common politeness dead...no..but we all could stop thinking about everything and just do it. Be kind and the kindness will grow.

 

Well Said. Kudos!

[SilverDNA]

Trying to explain what chivalry seams not to work here we end up in middle ages .

Since the topics headline is "Is chivilery dead" without any punctuation. The OP is framing in his 1st post liberal's to be responsible openly.

I came to the conclusion that a loot of posters might riding the horse from the wrong end in explaining what chivalry is or not is. (some tried to explain why chivalry is in decline to a degree)

The main question due to reading posts here should be in my opinion

- "Why is chivalry in decline?"

because everyone here agrees that it is still there and alive( to some degree.)

So the next question would be

- "What is did cause that chivalry in decline?"

and the question beyond that would be

- "Who or what is responsible for the decline of chivalry?"

In my opinion the answer to the last question should be "Fear"

I will not explain why I answer fear but I give you a chance by backtracking to find you the answer yourself, because there might someone who learns a thing or two in this process.

Edited October 4, 2011 by SilverDNA