Occupy Wall Street

[grannywils]

Don't ask me, LP. I lost track ages ago.... :wallbash:

[HeyYou]

Something about the futility of incoherent protests?

[grannywils]

Ah, futility..... That I understand. Thanks HY :wacko: :turned:

[Marxist ßastard]

What is the topic of this thread again?

See? People get hypnotized when you bring up the founding fathers' collective wang. That's what makes it a great metaphor.

 

I'm proud of that metaphor. I'd make it again.

[lukertin]

Err, how was the USA not intended to be a democratic country?

The constitution originally provided for the following:

 

1. House Representatives, directly elected by the people according to electoral processes outlined by each State.

2. House Senates, elected by the State legislatures.

3. President and Vice President, elected by the Electoral College which was appointed according to electoral processes outlined by each State, who vote according to procedures outlined by each State, if even they existed.

4. Guarantee of a republic form of government to each State

5. Creation of a Federal Court system that conceivably could act to strike down any federal law contravening the Constitution, and strike down any state law contravening the Constitution or federal laws. Federal judges are basically appointed by the President for life, unlike in most states where they are subject to some form of election.

 

Three separate ways to directly stymie the effects of democracy, first by limiting their ability to elect people who matter into positions of power, and then by creating an institution that could review every law they do manage to pass and invalidate it.

 

That isn't a democracy. Now, if you analyze each state as a democracy, you see certain patterns pop up. E.g., in California, the voters get to vote on a lot of things pushed through by their legislature, and they consistently do things like vote for tax decreases while approving budget increases. That's pretty bad, and is a number 1 reason why democracy will never work, nor should it ever be a primary form of government.

 

A lot of states also hold elections for state judges, which is also pretty bad, a judge should issue decisions based on the law not whether he wants to be re-elected (In states where judges are appointed, they are much more liberal in making law which is a good thing). Another reason why democracy is terrible. I could go on and on, but the Founders obviously recognized this was an awful idea and consciously implemented ways to prevent it from having an effect on the Federal government.

 

In the end you had populist movements in the US which lead to numerous economic panics every time they took power, and implemented some grand populist scheme, like fixing a silver:gold ratio, abolishing the National Bank of America, etc. Populism is nice and all on a small scale, but should never direct national policy.

[HeyYou]

Err, how was the USA not intended to be a democratic country?

The constitution originally provided for the following:

 

1. House Representatives, directly elected by the people according to electoral processes outlined by each State.

2. House Senates, elected by the State legislatures.

3. President and Vice President, elected by the Electoral College which was appointed according to electoral processes outlined by each State, who vote according to procedures outlined by each State, if even they existed.

4. Guarantee of a republic form of government to each State

5. Creation of a Federal Court system that conceivably could act to strike down any federal law contravening the Constitution, and strike down any state law contravening the Constitution or federal laws. Federal judges are basically appointed by the President for life, unlike in most states where they are subject to some form of election.

 

Three separate ways to directly stymie the effects of democracy, first by limiting their ability to elect people who matter into positions of power, and then by creating an institution that could review every law they do manage to pass and invalidate it.

 

That isn't a democracy. Now, if you analyze each state as a democracy, you see certain patterns pop up. E.g., in California, the voters get to vote on a lot of things pushed through by their legislature, and they consistently do things like vote for tax decreases while approving budget increases. That's pretty bad, and is a number 1 reason why democracy will never work, nor should it ever be a primary form of government.

 

A lot of states also hold elections for state judges, which is also pretty bad, a judge should issue decisions based on the law not whether he wants to be re-elected (In states where judges are appointed, they are much more liberal in making law which is a good thing). Another reason why democracy is terrible. I could go on and on, but the Founders obviously recognized this was an awful idea and consciously implemented ways to prevent it from having an effect on the Federal government.

 

In the end you had populist movements in the US which lead to numerous economic panics every time they took power, and implemented some grand populist scheme, like fixing a silver:gold ratio, abolishing the National Bank of America, etc. Populism is nice and all on a small scale, but should never direct national policy.

 

Ok, so, let's look at this a bit, California voters get to vote on darn near everything, and their budget is trashed. US Citizens don't get a say on federal budget matters (directly), and the federal budget is trashed. I don't see much of a difference there..... just who is at fault for our crappy financial position.

 

I agree on the judges thing though.....

[Lisnpuppy]

What is the topic of this thread again?

See? People get hypnotized when you bring up the founding fathers' collective wang. That's what makes it a great metaphor.

 

I'm proud of that metaphor. I'd make it again.

 

Though that brings to mind a particularly funny Adult Swim cartoon....I don't think that is the case. Maybe you batting for the other side a few pages ago? No..No that isn't it. Is this thread about the democratic system? No..wait...hmmm.......

[Kendo 2]

Well, look at it this way. This thread is just like the Occupy Wall Street fiasco. It got derailed.

 

The Wall Street rally started out as 'We're gonna change the world!' and now it's 'We're doing some urban camping and urinating and defecating on the sidewalks'.

[lukertin]

Ok, so, let's look at this a bit, California voters get to vote on darn near everything, and their budget is trashed. US Citizens don't get a say on federal budget matters (directly), and the federal budget is trashed. I don't see much of a difference there..... just who is at fault for our crappy financial position.

 

I agree on the judges thing though.....

 

Who is at fault for the Federal budget's crappiness? Umm...like, Bears Stearns, AIG, General Motors, Fannie Mae, etc.

[HeyYou]

Ok, so, let's look at this a bit, California voters get to vote on darn near everything, and their budget is trashed. US Citizens don't get a say on federal budget matters (directly), and the federal budget is trashed. I don't see much of a difference there..... just who is at fault for our crappy financial position.

 

I agree on the judges thing though.....

 

Who is at fault for the Federal budget's crappiness? Umm...like, Bears Stearns, AIG, General Motors, Fannie Mae, etc.

 

Those folks didn't hold congress at gunpoint to either 1.) Spend money like there is no tomorrow. Or 2.) Borrow 40% of their budget from China.