Occupy Wall Street

[grannywils]

I do not want to get into this subject too heavily, as I think it is wandering a bit off topic. However, although in general I am pro union, I must agree to some extent with Ginny's position that at least the leaders of most unions seem to be just as corrupt as any other "corporate" leader out there. It is just business as usual. You have the big guys with all the bucks and the little guys doing all the work for basically no money and very rarely a thank you. But they keep on voting them in. :wallbash: . Some unions these days do hold up some companies "just because they can", but I don't believe for a minute that it is on behalf of their membership. What they have all succeeded in doing is losing jobs for Americans. Corporations and Union leaders don't give a rat's behind about American jobs. They care about what goes into their pockets. End result: American jobs go overseas. In my book, corrupt is corrupt. I do not care if you are a banker, a politician, a union leader, a preacher or a porter. If you are dishonest you are dishonest.

[ginnyfizz]

Well put, Grannywils, that was my point exactly, that corruption is corruption whoever is indulging.

[marharth]

Unions can waste tax dollars, banks can destroy world economies.

 

You are correct that corruption is corruption, but the reason is was focused on wall street is because there is not really a single location you can go to protest all kinds of public unions.

 

Also ginny, go to your link and look at the comments under Lee's post.

 

 

The point is we need to get money out of politics. Banks are a bigger issue then public unions in this aspect.

[ginnyfizz]

Unions can waste tax dollars, banks can destroy world economies.

 

You are correct that corruption is corruption, but the reason is was focused on wall street is because there is not really a single location you can go to protest all kinds of public unions.

 

Also ginny, go to your link and look at the comments under Lee's post.

 

 

The point is we need to get money out of politics. Banks are a bigger issue then public unions in this aspect.

 

And you, marharth, read Tino's comment as well. I have read all of the article and comments before posting, thank you. There is an inability on the part of many on the left, with the honourable exception of our own Grannywils, to accept that union practices,corruption and grandstanding can place the ordinary person in just as invidious a position as the bankers of Wall Street and the City of London can. We in Britain have indeed had experience of trade union corruption and the infamous "closed shop" which was one of the things swept away by St Margaret Hilda. I am old enough to remember when Britain was the laughing stock and the sick man of Europe, because of the stranglehold that the trade unions had on any kind of enterprise. The likes of Arthur Scargill, the miner's union leader, openly boasted of their ability to bring down governments and dictate policy, whilst driving around in their Jaguars. And they did bring down governments. Until the aforesaid Mrs Thatcher stuck them out - with rather more public support than the BBC would ever admit, because people were saying "Hang on there..didn't I vote for my MP, not that ruddy Scargill..."

 

Unfortunately, by this time a lot of our manufacturing industry had already hightailed it abroad, and that was due to restrictive union practices. So unions are just as capable of destroying world economies as bankers are. And I remain amazed by the triviality with which you regard the wasting of taxpayer dollars. In a recession which threatens to become a slump, every cent counts.

[marharth]

I am not denying unions are corrupt. I am saying that bankers are more corrupt. I am not sure how it is in the the UK, but I have seen nothing to show that a union in the US could instantly collapse the worlds economy.

 

Did the UK's manufacturing industry really get forced to to go abroad? I highly doubt they were in a position where they were losing money. Maybe they wanted to move countries to get more profit, but that is their issue.

[ginnyfizz]

Yes, they were forced. Wot virtually no mining or textile industries? The unions bore the lions share of the blame for making those two, just to take a couple of examples (the former biggest employers in my area), collapse. The unions, rather than the bankers, brought Britain to the brink of collapse back on the 70's, because they made both industry unworkable and the country ungovernable. Management couldn't burp without "Everybody out!" It was not a case of simple profitability or not, it was a case of unmanageability - a cousin of mine was a manager in the textile industry in Leicester and ended up moving to Morocco because the firm went there. Union inflexibility being the prime mover. Eventually Britain had to be bailed out by the IMF. We were the Greece of those days, a basket case.

 

What exactly are the criteria for saying bankers are more corrupt and anyway, how the heck is that relevant? Corrupt is corrupt. The focus on the bankers is, therefore, hypocrisy. The OWS movement would get much more support if they addressed the issue of corruption in all walks of society.

[marharth]

Yes, they were forced. Wot virtually no mining or textile industries? The unions bore the lions share of the blame for making those two, just to take a couple of examples (the former biggest employers in my area), collapse. The unions, rather than the bankers, brought Britain to the brink of collapse back on the 70's, because they made both industry unworkable and the country ungovernable. Management couldn't burp without "Everybody out!" It was not a case of simple profitability or not, it was a case of unmanageability - a cousin of mine was a manager in the textile industry in Leicester and ended up moving to Morocco because the firm went there. Union inflexibility being the prime mover. Eventually Britain had to be bailed out by the IMF. We were the Greece of those days, a basket case.

 

What exactly are the criteria for saying bankers are more corrupt and anyway, how the heck is that relevant? Corrupt is corrupt. The focus on the bankers is, therefore, hypocrisy. The OWS movement would get much more support if they addressed the issue of corruption in all walks of society.

The point being is that it is easier to target a single thing and shout at that, then targeting multiple things. I do agree that both unions and banks are corrupt, but it is much easier to get your voice out if you target a single group. This is probably immoral is ways, and possibly hypocritical, but it is the best way to do it.

 

The main goal of the protests is to get money out of politics and shout at the powerful and rich. I will go ahead and say I can easily see your point of view of the unions. Not going to doubt what you mentioned, but that doesn't really have as much to do with money in politics as banks do.

[JimboUK]

Theivery and corruption were still rife under the last government, through the "Union Modernisation Fund" Labour were basically helping themselves to taxpayers money via the unions. The unions were given taxpayers money and a cut of that went in "donations" to the Labour party. In local government the theft of taxpayers money is still going on, union reps are being paid from the public purse to carry out their union activities, activities that should be paid for by the unions themselves.

 

Ginny has already covered what I was going to say on the damage unions can do to economies, a lot on the left blame Thatcher for the loss of our manufacturing industry but the fact is it was already on taxpayer funded life support when she came to power in 79, the unions had already destroyed it.

[PowderdToastMan]

Thought i'd share with ya'll some OWS facts

 

Some organizations that support and sponsor OWS here: ( not including the paid protestors that have been bussed in by the unions) http://pjmedia.com/zombie/2011/10/31/the-99-official-list-of-ows/

 

A list of particular incidents here: http://biggovernment.com/jjmnolte/2011/10/28/occupywallstreet-the-rap-sheet-so-far/

 

 

 

 

[marharth]

Thought i'd share with ya'll some OWS facts

 

Some organizations that support and sponsor OWS here: ( not including the paid protestors that have been bussed in by the unions) http://pjmedia.com/zombie/2011/10/31/the-99-official-list-of-ows/

 

A list of particular incidents here: http://biggovernment.com/jjmnolte/2011/10/28/occupywallstreet-the-rap-sheet-so-far/

 

 

 

 

Any proof for any of that? The sites you linked where extremely right wing biased, so that's not even close to a valid link. The reason that the site claims that the nazi party supports OWS is because they think that bankers are all evil Jews. That is not a valid reason to put down OWS. The other links went straight to fox news. The communist party does support OWS. That should be obvious why, and I don't even know why people think that is a issue anymore. Its not the 50's, not every communist is a Russian who wants to kill you.

 

 

Your tea party thing is ridiculous. I don't even think anyone needs to respond to that until you give your evidence from a valid unbiased link.

 

Do you have any evidence that protesters are paid? I know for damn sure that no protesters are being paid to be there. I have quite a few friends that have been attending occupy LA, and they are certainly not doing any of the things you just described.

Edited November 7, 2011 by marharth