Education in America??????

[grannywils]

I was reading an article recently in USA Today regarding how poor science education has impaired the US economy.

 

Following is a link for those of you interested in the details: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2010-09-23-science-education_N.htm

 

I would also like to recommend that any of you who did not see it, go take a look at the video posted by Harbringe in the "Occupy Wall Street" thread. It is Post #94. I warn you ahead of time that it does contain some rather foul language. However, it gets right to the heart of my concerns about education in this country, anyway.

 

What concerns me is that so many of the statistics in this article just have no reason to exist. We struggle to maintain our position as a powerhouse in the world, and we cannot do what it takes to teach our children. I just don't get it. What is the thinking that tells us there is "no profit" in education. We can spend billions on building bigger and better weaponry, and we can pay our entertainers and sports figures huge salaries, or our failed executives can receive golden parachutes for driving businesses into the ground. But we do not want to pay teachers a decent salary or pay taxes to keep our school systems from crumbling to the ground. Nor can we stop and take a look and what we are teaching our kids. How is it possible that U.S. mathematics and science K-12 educations ranks 48th worldwide???? How?? This does not even compute with me.

 

Even those of us more interested in the mighty dollar, must see that if we do not have a future generation that knows how to count and how to build a bridge or read a graph, we are going to be in a world of hurt.

 

Those of us who want to jump and shout and tell the rest of the world how it ought to behave, might just want to step back a bit and be sure that our children will be able to tie their own shoes, and speak a coherent sentence when their turn comes to take over the reins. They will be our representatives, and as far as I am concerned they have far more value than we seem to be showing them at the moment.

 

Just wondered how the rest of you felt about this subject.

 

 

[marharth]

Here is the video that grannywils is referring to

I agree with what Carlin said.

 

Few things I want to say as well. There is a lot of stuff being taught to kids at a young age that directly conflicts with science education. Not going to go into that, but I think its obvious what my opinion is and what I mean.

 

Being fairly young myself I was in the modern system a few years ago, and a huge problem is the lack of promotion of free thinking and the insistence of standardized testing. From the sixth grade and up almost all of my teachers simply gave out books and tests, and rarely even talked about the subject. The teachers themselves commonly did not know what the subject was, and had to call help or study the subject mid-class.

 

This was not just one state or school. My education took place is multiple schools in North Carolina (I lived in a fairly wealthy family, my school was in no way a bad one) and California. I am not one to rely entirely on personal experience, but I am pretty sure most people already know how bad the system is.

[lukertin]

If the USA's rank in that international standard were split along state lines, Massachusetts would be ranked in the -teenths or higher. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment#cite_note-10)

 

Jus' sayin'.

 

It's not the USA as a whole, but problematic States with dumb people who have no desire to be smart. Like...if the South were excised from the statistics gathering I have no doubt the USA's standing would jump up 20 places.

Edited October 11, 2011 by lukertin

[grannywils]

<FONT size=3 face="Comic Sans MS">Lukertin: Are you seriously suggesting that it is the fault of the students in certain areas for our low ranking in educational achievement? When you were acquiring that particular Wiki link, did you read the information just above it regarding low performance in the US being closely related to American poverty. Where did you come up with "laziness". Could there possibly be any relationship to the quality of education provided in those poorer areas?? Just maybe?? </FONT>

[lukertin]

<FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT size=3>@Lukertin: Are you seriously suggesting that it is the fault of the students in certain areas for our low ranking in educational achievement? When you were acquiring that particular Wiki link, did you read the information just above it regarding low performance in the US being closely related to American poverty. Where did you come up with "laziness". Could there possibly be any relationship to the quality of education provided in those poorer areas?? Just maybe??</FONT></FONT>

 

I'm suggesting it's the fault of the governments in charge. Some of those schools spend millions on their gorram football team and then wonder why their students can't speel good or do math too good either. I'm not really attributing it to student laziness, but lack of parent involvement and institutional laziness in the governments and government agencies involved.

Edited October 11, 2011 by lukertin

[greywaste]

I can't give a response based purely upon the USA, but in the two countries I've lived in, I've seen a similar thing happening. There's a multitude of reasons for this - including some of the following :

 

Jobs that require the use of tools (to loosely bundle a lot of occupations together here that in a lot of ways bridge the gap between manual labour and technology and science related work) have been demeaned and derided gradually over the years despite the fact that after the learning period the pay is very good. Here in Denmark, a new estate built near me recently with large, quite luxurious houses is comprised almost completely of owners who are carpenters, plumbers, builders and electricians (with an uncanny amount of wives who are childminders :unsure: )

 

Vocational training has been neglected.

 

'Social sciences' and the arts aren't subjects that have a complete set of static truths - right and wrong answers. They're easier, becoming more tempting to study and they're also much more fashionable (here anyway)

 

Employer laziness. Too many jobs out there list degrees in the requirements when in fact you'll probably never use any of that knowledge in a lot of cases (a former co-worker of mine at an old IT job I had in the UK was a contractor from Sony - said his Computer Science degree looked good on a CV and that was it).

Tie this in with a mentality of "everyone should get a prize, not just the winner) and too many people are trying to get college degrees.

This has the effect of :

a) pulling too many out of the employment loop.

b) a boost in polularity of easier courses and subjects.

c) Universities in some cases actually dumbing down the said topics to avoid getting a poor average.

 

Over-coddled children. Kids first see science at work at a very young age, all around them when playing. These days we have health n' safety regs up our collective butts and an increased fear of strangers paedophiles, kidnappers etc so I believe children are being handicapped pretty much from birth.

 

In general though, a huge poulation also exacerbates this problem.

[Harbringe]

It's not the USA as a whole, but problematic States with dumb people who have no desire to be smart. Like...if the South were excised from the statistics gathering I have no doubt the USA's standing would jump up 20 places.

 

Well they did pretty much all vote for this guy , so yeah I'd go with that.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx7a3leZJJI

[greywaste]

I love those "walk-in, fart quickly, walk out" style posts that are just so useful...

 

Anyway....

 

Lukertin does raise a good point in my opinion - check out University rankings, top 3 are USA I think right now. Out of the top 10, I think there are 5 or 6 in there. This was a while back I saw so I'm not 100%, but I'm sure I'm not too far off anyway. Additionally MIT is probably regarded as number 1 globally in terms of science and tech.

[ginnyfizz]

It's not the USA as a whole, but problematic States with dumb people who have no desire to be smart. Like...if the South were excised from the statistics gathering I have no doubt the USA's standing would jump up 20 places.

 

Well they did pretty much all vote for this guy , so yeah I'd go with that.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx7a3leZJJI

 

Am certainly looking forward to some of the well informed and erudite Southerners on these forums having their say about that. A pretty cheap shot the pair of you. Shame on you. IIRC Grannywils herself is a Southerner. Go for it Granny!

 

And she is speaking of the general level of education in the US, the same observations could be made of my own country as well. Education IS neglected and is often more about league tables and scoring points, rather than fitting the youth of today to be productive members of society. We can have undergraduates who have supposedly got the highest possible examination passes from high school who can barely read and write. Vocational skills are hideously neglected - a big mistake as greywaste rightly points out, as the plumber, carpenter, builder or electrician is always going to be in high demand and thus be able to earn an excellent living. I often wonder how many of the listless unemployed youths we have in my own country have actually not had their skills channelled aright - they were never going to be academic and the manic focussing on the exam league tables left them behind, but had they had the opportunity for vocational education to learn one of these trades, then their lives could have been vastly enriched.

[Kendo 2]

It's not the USA as a whole, but problematic States with dumb people who have no desire to be smart. Like...if the South were excised from the statistics gathering I have no doubt the USA's standing would jump up 20 places.

 

You wanna clarify this statement?

 

I happen to live in the South, Texas to be exact. I have traveled all over this country and I can say with 100% confidence that stupidity is not a 'Southern Phenomenon'.

 

I'm a compressor mechanic in the oil and gas industry. I have two patents and one process patent. I make an assload money doing what I do and I'm what high-minded elitists call an 'ignorant redneck'. BUT I'm at the top of the food chain in my field and people who are not from the South answer to me and look TO ME for answers when they are standing around conference tables scratching their heads like a pack of morons, but their suits look nice.

 

I am a product of Southern public schools and the ONLY reason I went to college was to chase girls and drink beer, yet HERE I AM. It is personal initiative and DRIVE that makes people 'smart'.