Transcending the Catch 22 in all RPGs

[Corakus]

I can't remember exactly how to do it, it was a long time ago when I played it.

[TroloWiseEared]

I think if an RPG's gameplay provided more approaches/strategies to overcoming enemies, and different enemies were more/less susceptible to different strategies, the line between too easy and too hard would dissolve some.

 

But as for your question... yeah I do that sort of thing. I indulge in chasing after the amenities, maybe train a little in my house, blow off steam, buy some stuff, and do a little light questing before I apply myself to getting over another obstacle to my progress in the game. Hey, it's exactly like taking a vacation in real life. Damn, I love TES.

You know...i really like that. its a very good idea.

So instead of making enemies more difficult by giving them More Health & more damaging attacks,

you Improve there A.I. or atleast apply it in a clever manner as to force the player to resort to specific strategies to defeat them?

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The Drone

-A weak foe which confuses the player with it's extreme disregard for its own well being. This adversary simply wishes to close the distance and surround the player with its many allys.

It values teamwork, and self sacrifice. has little regard for defense or cleverness, simplicity is the deadly key, and numbers are its ally. The 'Meatshield' This foe will inevitably surround and destroy. In most cases it is better to avoid these foes when in large numbers.

<Skeletons>

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The Acrobat

-A range attacking foe who attack the player with short ranged attacks from many positions,

Not neccesarily quick while moving, but it utilises a series of acrobatic jumps and can attach to walls.

Its primary asset is that it relocates before the player can get a fix on its position.

<Willo-The-Wisps>

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The Juggernaut

-An unstoppable force. A bull. This foe challenges the player with its audacity and boldness. It Is not nessecarily adept at offense but its strategy implys otherwise. The Juggernaut charges the player and builds momentum. Upon reaching the player it will plow through him, knocking him over. The juggernaut is extremely defended from the front(while moving) But his back is his weak spot, the key to defeating this creature is By dodging and countering.

The Strategy of this creature is to ovverun your perimiter or 'safe zone'

<Wild Boars>

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The Hugger

-This foe challenges the player with its method of immobilising the player. Either through Stealth or magic this foe will try to slow the player or render them completely still, which is to say, very vulnerable to those who rely on speed.

One breed may strike from the shadows and grab hold of the player while others close in for the kill.

Thes creatures are the banes of archers and most mages, both of which rely on maintaining mobility and distance until ready to strike.

Never approach these creatures head on, or atleast in close range, keep your distance and keep a companion close.

The way to counter these creatures is through Detering them with fire & light and keeping a companion close who will free you.

<Zombies/Trolls>

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The Imposter

-This foe applys radiant Story to its attack method in some cases.Its ability is to change its shape and assume the role of other creatures (in appearance only) is its deadly method. It may come in the shape of a child you met long ago in riverwood, claiming they are here to help you. You let him tag along and you seal your fate. The second it gets the chance it will attack and drag you off.

There is very few ways to battle a foe like this, but the best is having a keen observation to notice anomolies or strange actions in others.

<Mythic Dawn Agents>

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Edited October 14, 2011 by TroloWiseEared

[CalibanX]

I too, really like the idea of having very different combat AI for opponents other than just scaled damage and health. I want giant spiders to fight completely differently than skeletons. One aspect Oblivion was really lacking in was opponents who used stealth to sneak up on you in the dark and poison you. This would be an excellent opening attack move for Giant Spiders for instance. Frost Trolls could rush you and pummel away aggressively, etc. I imagine the modders will be able to further flesh out the dynamics of combat behavior if Bethesda fall short.

 

Another option I was thinking of for other things to do with one's money would be if you could somehow use it to improve the towns and cities in various ways, like commissioning the construction of new windmills, farms and other structures around the cities to further give your character the feel that they can influence the world in ways other than just killing things.

[TroloWiseEared]

I too, really like the idea of having very different combat AI for opponents other than just scaled damage and health. I want giant spiders to fight completely differently than skeletons. One aspect Oblivion was really lacking in was opponents who used stealth to sneak up on you in the dark and poison you. This would be an excellent opening attack move for Giant Spiders for instance. Frost Trolls could rush you and pummel away aggressively, etc. I imagine the modders will be able to further flesh out the dynamics of combat behavior if Bethesda fall short.

 

Another option I was thinking of for other things to do with one's money would be if you could somehow use it to improve the towns and cities in various ways, like commissioning the construction of new windmills, farms and other structures around the cities to further give your character the feel that they can influence the world in ways other than just killing things.

EXACTLY!

Well what i listed above were the major unique fighting styles seen in most endlevel bosses.

My perspective is a little different though,

I WANT a creature like a wolf to have something unique, something that can make it deadly in certain situations. a combat mechanic.Its great that theyve included flanking and whatnot, but i want something that can make a wolf a deadly enemy in certain situations.

Like say your fighting in a battle as a healer, A wolf normally would just stand in front of you and attack, WHAT I WANT TO SEE is a Drag mechanic applied to wolves.

-

your in the midst of battle, healing your comrades and using destruction on your foes.

from behind a wolf sneak atacks and grabs hold of your leg, dragging you away from the battlefield and into a comprosmising position.

You kick it and it doesnt let go. your companion rushes over and kicks the wolf away freeing you.

-

Your exploring a dark cave, and all of a sudden you hear a wet clicking noise,

and you take damage aND Your vision becomes blurry.

A giant frsotbite spider had jumped down behind you and injected you with poison.

Now it strafes the walls spitting webs at you, slowly entangling you as you succumb to the poison..

You use your fire spell to burn away the wall webbings, restricting its movement and forcing it to come down.

-

A horde of zombies is closing in on all angles, they have little health but the second one of them gets behind you or staggers you they will grab you.

-

A frost troll is battling you on a high peak, the troll constantly rushes up and grabs you and attempts to throw you over the side.

-

[Gnasker]

Level scaling if done properly can overcome a lot of problems, Morrowind got it right up until a certain level but then you turned into god, Oblivion got it wrong and you lost all sense of achievement and advancement. Take Morrowinds model and extend it to higher levels would be my answer, I just hope they don't tackle the problem with level capping.

 

I don't see what the fuss is about, there is scaling in nearly every RPG, it's also present in shooters and even racing games. Altering the standard of the opposition to keep things interesting for the player is pretty much standard, as you unlock better weapons in shooters so do the enemy, when you get a better car in a racing game you'll find the opposition upgraded as well. If people really want enemies of all levels there from the start then they'll soon find that their open world suddenly isn't very open and when they do get powerful enough to go everywhere most enemies will provide no challenge at all.

 

It amuzed me a bit, that one one side I must uterly agree with you:

Level scaling ala Morrowind really can be a usefull tool. You really got the feeling of becoming stronger as you levelled up over time. Not much stronger but still slightly stronger so that there would be progress. (Though invincible end game in Morrowind - Sadly)

 

Though this is were I come to differ;

As I recall it, this was exactly done through level capping. Some creatures would level e.g. from 5-10. In other words, they would be capped at a min and a max.

This ment that when you arrived at a certain area, you might get your ass handed to you. A few levels later it could prove quite a challenge (when you were inside their leveling range) and later in the game that perticular area would simply be a walkover. This was, more or less, as I recall the leveling mechanism of Morrowind.

This also ment, that the world weren't completly open at start. There were places you could hardly survive (an example is the northern island regions), because the enemies were capped at a high minimum level, but in my opinion, that just add to the feeling of the game. In that way you will experience pogress and acomplisment throughout the game, but also keep the feeling of beeing just a humble "outlander" on foreign shores as you set out.

 

In any way it can hardly be as awfull as Oblivion - Upon hitting 100 in any skill, you would only become relativly weaker for every level!

[JimboUK]

Level scaling if done properly can overcome a lot of problems, Morrowind got it right up until a certain level but then you turned into god, Oblivion got it wrong and you lost all sense of achievement and advancement. Take Morrowinds model and extend it to higher levels would be my answer, I just hope they don't tackle the problem with level capping.

 

I don't see what the fuss is about, there is scaling in nearly every RPG, it's also present in shooters and even racing games. Altering the standard of the opposition to keep things interesting for the player is pretty much standard, as you unlock better weapons in shooters so do the enemy, when you get a better car in a racing game you'll find the opposition upgraded as well. If people really want enemies of all levels there from the start then they'll soon find that their open world suddenly isn't very open and when they do get powerful enough to go everywhere most enemies will provide no challenge at all.

 

It amuzed me a bit, that one one side I must uterly agree with you:

Level scaling ala Morrowind really can be a usefull tool. You really got the feeling of becoming stronger as you levelled up over time. Not much stronger but still slightly stronger so that there would be progress. (Though invincible end game in Morrowind - Sadly)

 

Though this is were I come to differ;

As I recall it, this was exactly done through level capping. Some creatures would level e.g. from 5-10. In other words, they would be capped at a min and a max.

This ment that when you arrived at a certain area, you might get your ass handed to you. A few levels later it could prove quite a challenge (when you were inside their leveling range) and later in the game that perticular area would simply be a walkover. This was, more or less, as I recall the leveling mechanism of Morrowind.

This also ment, that the world weren't completly open at start. There were places you could hardly survive (an example is the northern island regions), because the enemies were capped at a high minimum level, but in my opinion, that just add to the feeling of the game. In that way you will experience pogress and acomplisment throughout the game, but also keep the feeling of beeing just a humble "outlander" on foreign shores as you set out.

 

In any way it can hardly be as awfull as Oblivion - Upon hitting 100 in any skill, you would only become relativly weaker for every level!

 

I agree with you, by level capping I meant capping the player as they did in FO3. Morrowind had it right until you got to certain level, if they kept the same system going higher it would have been perfect. You did feel like you were progressing and getting stronger in Morrowind, you'd get your arse handed to you at one level only to come back later and get revenge, that never happened in Oblivion. I don't think we have too much to worry about anyway, the scaling in FO3 was far better than it was in Oblivion, they obviously learned their lesson.

[SansSword]

You know...i really like that. its a very good idea.

So instead of making enemies more difficult by giving them More Health & more damaging attacks,

you Improve there A.I. or atleast apply it in a clever manner as to force the player to resort to specific strategies to defeat them?

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various descriptions of enemy AI sequences

 

I encountered this relatively often in Oblivion, you probably have too but to much less of an extent than you're proposing

 

I remember coming across Bandit camps where 1 bandit would rush me with a sword, 2 bandits would string arrows and fire from afar, and a Bandit Hedge Wizard would summon daedra and cast spells on me from afar

 

Pretty good combo there, intense fights

 

As for level scaling, I do prefer the Morrowind model. Have, perhaps, a corridor of level 1-10 beasts from Seyda Neen to Balmora (the first general corridor of content most players will follow) who stop leveling at 10. Anywhere from 1-10 this area will be a challenge but come back at 20 and you're like, Damn, this is cake, those damn worms used to knock the shutyomouth outta me.

 

Then the next area from Balmora to (uhh, where do you go next? can't recall, Aldruhn?) the next city has monsters who range from 10-20 but STOP leveling at 20.

 

Call it Limited Level Scaling

[Tuco404]

I have to mod TES 3/4 and fallout 3/NV to make them challenging throughout the game. If two mobs aren't a challenge, what if I just put twenty there? Edited October 15, 2011 by Tuco404

[LilBudyWizer]

Personally, the problem is the levelling curve. Not in and of itself. That's usually exponental. The rate at which you gain experience is exponential too though so levelling ends up being linear. It should start out difficult to level, grow easier until you're advancing fairly rapidly and then get ever harder to advance levels. What you gain per level becomes every more powerful, but getting gets every more unattainable. That's how the real world works and the real world keeps people engaged for a lifetime. Well, that happens over a lifetime and people's perspective changes over time, but the same happens with a game.

 

If you're looking for a bigger challenge than the arch-enemy after you defeat him you're a fool. That isn't what people are looking for, just more the same. They enjoyed playing the game and want to keep on playing. Personally, there should be a level cap, but not a blanket one. You're limited to level 20 so all the creatures are what's appropriate to level 20. No, some would be appropriate to 25 though you'll never get there. Some would be appropriate to 15, but you never know until you step through that door. It's no longer about being more uber, having more uber gear, it's about learning to play the game better. That's why most keep playing. It isn't about the material reward, but the satisfaction. If you get ran out of cave that's a thorn in your side. Grrr, them little bastards, I'll get them yet. There must be a way, what don't I get, what don't I understand?

[Alcrin]

I wonder if the developers of these kinds of games wrestle with issues like this when designing them?

 

Certainly. The way to keep the challenge level consistent without making leveling just feel like a treadmill is to increase the complexity of encounters, not just the numbers. Oblivion did this very poorly: The only time enemies get more complex to fight is at the high levels when they get annoying spells like invisibility and spell reflection. Character progression needs to give the player new options and the new encounters need to provide exploitable opportunities for these options. And that's probably the most difficult problem to deal with in TES's Open World style: How do you really let the player go anywhere and do anything they want at any time while keeping the challenge level consistent AND keeping the game interesting by introducing new mechanics over time?

 

Unfortunately Skyrim's not using this answer but here's how I would solve the problem: Perks are the right way to go here, but the perks need to be about the player's interaction with the environment. Probably the only decent example in Skyrim is the zoom perk for Archery: Suddenly, sniping from a distance becomes much more reasonable. All parts of the environment need to be designed to give exploitable situations with all perks (for example, all encounters need to have good sniping spots), but no individual perk should ever be necessary for completing anything, and the player should be equally versatile with any combination of perk choices (this is definitely the hardest part of the design). Provide progression in the form of enemies by designing them such that the basic tactics available from the beginning of the game no longer work and the player has to use the new perks they've chosen to use the exploitable environment designs. As the challenge level of enemies increases to match the player's level, give them more and more new powers that obsolete the player's old tactics forcing them to explore new possibilities.