Is Jefferson relevant to the Framing of the Constitution?

[marharth]

Might as well make a new thread for this to avoid the other on from getting completely derailed.

 

1. Is Jefferson really a founding father?

 

2. The title.

 

Note: Credit to Aurielius for the title, thought I would say that since I did kinda copy and paste the exact wording from his post.

Edited October 17, 2011 by marharth

[myrmaad]

I can't imagine what could possibly have prompted this topic, but the thought occurs to me, couldn't you just spend some time each weekend watching C-Span, BookTv & American History TV.

It would stop some of this ridiculous inanity.

[grannywils]

Good point, Myrmaad, but there appear to be some among us who don't. Therefore the OP, was rescuing another thread from becoming derailed and going so off topic that he started a new one. The other thread (about guns) was becoming embroiled in whether or not Mr. Jefferson was one of the Founding Fathers of our Nation. He meant well.

[myrmaad]

Well, I beg your pardon, then, Marharth. But to be honest, about ninety percent of these debate topic titles make me cringe. Thanks, grannywils.

[Lisnpuppy]

OK I am gonna try this one.

 

Is Jefferson a Founding Father and did he have any impact on the Constitution?

 

It isn't an easy question when one looks at the face value of the question. Initially one may say no. Jefferson was in France at the time of the writing and ratification of the Constitution and also spoke that he would vote against it. Jefferson was well noted, at least in his early career as being very pro-State's Rights and anti-federal government. Odd to see that he probably did more to increase the power of the Presidency than any other President until modern times.

 

With this knowledge one may well count off Jefferson. However I think he was one of the MOST important of the Founding Fathers. To begin it was his brilliant ideas and words that largely created the Declaration of Independence which formed the basis of the ideas American's have come to associate with the say, mission statement of the forming of our country. It gave life, focus and voice to the Revolution and has continued to give voice to people around the world.

 

Next is that because of Jefferson's strong beliefs regarding State's rights and civil liberty (and lets not digress into the slavery issue as that is something different) that the Constitution has the Bill of Rights and the process of checks and balances that has made the American system of government so different from everything that came before (at least on paper.) Jefferson spoke and wrote prolifically regarding his beliefs on the topics which had great influence on the other Founding Fathers who were at the ratification. This helped them to compromise their way to a working Constitution that they felt was a good balance of State vs Federal rights and Rights of the State vs Civil Liberties.

 

So knowing all this I would say that yes, Jefferson can indeed be considered one of the Founding Fathers and a very important one at that.

[lukertin]

Is Jefferson a founding father? Obviously.

 

Did Jefferson have an impact on the framing of the Constitution? Likely. But ultimately, no, because he had zero voting power, he had zero power to make proposals, and he had zero power to amend any proposals that came to the table. How do you give import to someone who had zero input into a committee process?

 

Did Jefferson have an impact on the Bill of Rights? James Madison wrote the Bill of Rights by himself, copying the Virginia Declaration of Rights. Jefferson had no input on the Virginia Declaration of Rights, in fact, the Virginia Declaration influenced him when he wrote the Declaration of Independence--a document that he wrote but did not solely author. You all conveniently forget the valuable input of John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Roger Sherman, and Robert Livingstone.

 

Does Jefferson's opinion of original Constitutional interpretation matter to a level at least equal to that of James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, Benjamin Franklin, or any other delegate to the Constitutional Convention who exercised voting power, proposal power, or amending power? Emphatically, conclusively, no. He is utterly irrelevant. There are only two classes of documents which matter to resolving Founder's intent: notes taken during the convention by the delegates, & the Federalist papers. Anybody else's thoughts are secondary and deserve no more attention, by themselves, than a tavern drunkard.

[ub3rman123]

It's not just the Constitution that made him relevant (Because as said, he was away), but everything else. He did many things for the country before and after the Constitution was penned which were just as important.

[Lisnpuppy]

Is Jefferson a founding father? Obviously.

 

Did Jefferson have an impact on the framing of the Constitution? Likely. But ultimately, no, because he had zero voting power, he had zero power to make proposals, and he had zero power to amend any proposals that came to the table. How do you give import to someone who had zero input into a committee process?

 

Did Jefferson have an impact on the Bill of Rights? James Madison wrote the Bill of Rights by himself, copying the Virginia Declaration of Rights. Jefferson had no input on the Virginia Declaration of Rights, in fact, the Virginia Declaration influenced him when he wrote the Declaration of Independence--a document that he wrote but did not solely author. You all conveniently forget the valuable input of John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Roger Sherman, and Robert Livingstone.

 

Does Jefferson's opinion of original Constitutional interpretation matter to a level at least equal to that of James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, Benjamin Franklin, or any other delegate to the Constitutional Convention who exercised voting power, proposal power, or amending power? Emphatically, conclusively, no. He is utterly irrelevant. There are only two classes of documents which matter to resolving Founder's intent: notes taken during the convention by the delegates, & the Federalist papers. Anybody else's thoughts are secondary and deserve no more attention, by themselves, than a tavern drunkard.

 

 

I haven't conveniently forgotten anything. I am well aware of the editorial assistance that Jefferson received from others including my well-meaning yet social-idiot of an ancestor John Adams. However it was by far Jefferson who took these ideas and gave then life. Jefferson had far more influence than you give him credit for in these matters. Lack of voting power does not lack of influence make. Jefferson was a master of the written word and it is clear from his writings that his influence and though processes were not ignored when it came to the realization of States Rights and Civil Rights in the Constitution. Here is an example of some of his writings and the effect on different Constitutional ideas including the Bill of Rights.

 

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/jefffed.html

 

So I stand by my post. Jefferson was important and relevant.

[lukertin]

Lack of voting power does not lack of influence make. Jefferson was a master of the written word and it is clear from his writings that his influence and though processes were not ignored when it came to the realization of States Rights and Civil Rights in the Constitution. Here is an example of some of his writings and the effect on different Constitutional ideas including the Bill of Rights.

 

As I stated and which you have ignored, How does one give import to someone's influence, real or imaginary, who retained no voting power, proposal power, or amendment power? How does someone, who has no knowledge of the intimate details of committee procedure, who does not partake in committee debate, how does that person have views which illuminate the original intent of the purpose of the Constitution? You have not answered this.

 

I'll give you that Jefferson regularly corresponded with James Madison during the Convention. So he wrote and bounced ideas off one of the guys there, who was pretty important. Does that prove influence? No. But even if he managed to influence James Madison, does that mean he influenced the rest of the Convention? No. In short, did Jefferson influence the formation of the Constitution? If you answer yes, you need to analyze each link on the way to yes and present convincing evidence in support for each link. You have not done this.

 

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/jefffed.html

 

So I stand by my post. Jefferson was important and relevant.

Under 'Towards a Federal Constitution' the following letters are listed:

1. to William Smith; not a delegate to the Constitutional Convention, thus the ideas expressed therein have nothing to do with the formation of the Constitution

2. to James Currie; also not a delegate to the Constitutional Convention, thus the ideas expressed therein have nothing to do with the formation of the Constitution

3. to James Madison; who was instrumental in the Constitutional Convention, however, he expressed an idea which are prevalent throughout all thirteen states so his opinion on the matter affords rather little weight; furthermore the Convention convened with the understanding that a Bill of Rights would be later added--which, had Jefferson been present, he would have known.

4. to the American Public, an annotation of the Federalist Papers; serving little more than either an endorsement or rejection of the actual Constitutional intent embodied by the actual delegates to the Constitution who outlined how the Constitution would function because, you know, they were actually there when it was being written and thus, have a viewpoint that actually matters when you try to resolve Founder's intent.

 

You still haven't presented substantial evidence explaining why Thomas Jefferson's thoughts and opinions regarding Constitutional Interpretation are at least as important as those of an actual delegate to the Constitutional Convention. The evidence you point to 'proving' his influence on the Constitution's formation is barely sufficient to even function as proof of influence, two letters addressed to people who had zero involvement with the Constitution and two letters written after the Constitution had already been drafted barely qualify as proof of his influence. If this is the best the Library of Congress can come up with to prove Jefferson's influence on the drafting of the Constitution, then you're really grasping at straws.

Edited October 17, 2011 by lukertin

[Lisnpuppy]

Fine....you ask for more specifics I will give them to you...at least once I get some sleep. I can no longer hold pen to paper...well fingers to keyboard. So it will need wait as I have not slept in 2 days. :thumbsup: