Don't get angry, get organised! (Stolen mods)

[Casputin]

So it's obvious a lot of people have had their work stolen and a lot of authors have taken down their work both on Nexus and Bethnet.

 

Complaints have been filed and we wait to see what action, if any, Beth / Zenimax will take. There's only so much we can do to be proactive but I think getting organised would help give the modding community a stronger voice that Bethesda would have to listen to.

 

I'm not saying it would change the world, it might not change anything at all but it would be a positive step modders can take.

 

The best start would be a petition, making clear what we want to change. We need to discuss what needs to be done and then get together to put our names behind it. I'd rather not be the one to create it, I'm an obscure modder with only 2 non-Fallout 4 mods to my name so I'd like to see a prominent modder effected by the theft come forward to put their name to the petition and get the ball rolling.

It's not a lot, I know, but it's something we can do to take a positive step forward. As it stands, Bethesda have the upper hand because we're not organised while they are, this could be a good step to rebalance that to a degree.

 

Anyway, I'd like to hear what you think.

[chucksteel]

Bethesda ORGANIZED!!!! "Can you pass whatever it is your smoking this way?" :wacko:

 

On a serious note, I was not one who was violated but I have hidden all of my mod for all Bethesda games both here and on Bethesda.Theft in support of those who have been wronged.

[steelfeathers]

I agree with this.

 

But in organizing ourselves, we have to remember that Bethesda is not our enemy - in fact, they are probably the most open and welcoming game studio towards modders I've ever encountered. Have they made some missteps? Yes. But it wasn't done out of maliciousness. A company saying, "Hey, let's support console users being able to get mods" is UNPRECEDENTED. Game companies don't do generous, community-oriented things like that. Except Bethesda.

 

So yes, let's get organized to make it easier to have our viewpoint heard, and so that we can have a better line of communication with Bethesda. Let's just remember that we'll accomplish nothing if we set out to make a pitch-fork mob rather than a union.

[Casputin]

The tone of the post is maybe a bit more militant than I was going for. I just think it's important that we have a unified voice with which to address the issues and leave Beth in no doubt about the importance of them, it's not about confrontation. As you said, union not angry mob. That's part of the reason I didn't just start the petition myself, I think there needs to be a discussion about what exactly would be -positive- steps Bethesda / Zenimax could take, before we take our request to them. A dedicated theft reporting system would be a good start, I'd love to hear more ideas.

 

Bethesda ORGANIZED!!!! "Can you pass whatever it is your smoking this way?" :wacko:

 

:tongue:

[Trykz]

The solution here is really quite simple. And I said EXACTLY the same thing on Beth.net:

 

Employ the same method Nexus uses concerning mod theft. ACT FIRST, verify later. If an author reports their mod (or assets from their mod) stolen and uploaded without the author's express permission, the mod is immediately removed (or hidden for review), and the onus for proving the mod is NOT stolen falls squarely onto the uploader. NOT the mod author through some legal process that could take weeks to resolve while their users continue to enjoy stolen content they willingly host. Which is EXACTLY what Beth.net is doing. No member has been banned from their site for uploading the stolen mods that they have removed. No disciplinary actions have been administered either. The same users who took the mods and uploaded them, are continuing to do so. Unchecked.

 

Just ONE TIME I found assets from one of my mods in another mod here on Nexus. ONE. I reported it, the mod was hidden, the uploader banned when he couldn't prove I had given permission for use of the assets, and the mod was then deleted from Nexus entirely. A few assets from some of my Skyrim race mods are still in use in other mods here (companions of a custom race, etc.). And the users who uploaded them all requested, and received, my permission for their use. They also credited me for my work.

 

As it should be.

 

Bethesda has turned the modding community inside out. And now EVERYONE is paying for it. Including users here at Nexus. The modding community has existed for well over a decade, and developed it's own *etiquette* and self-policing policies for dealing with mod/asset theft. Etiquette and policies that WILL NOT be forcibly altered by ANYONE. For over a week, modders warned of the consequences for disrespect to modders and theft of their work on Beth.net. Warnings that obviously fell upon deaf ears. In EVERY modding community I take part in, the modder is considered FIRST. Including here.

 

Because communities like Nexus, LL, and others understand ONE fundamental truth: These communities would NOT EXIST without them.

 

And now Bethesda simply strolls in, tramples everything in their path, and takes off for the weekend? While their users blatantly bash modders openly on their forums, and steal their hard work? Sorry Bethesda/Zenimax, but you're not special simply by virtue of being a development studio. And you WILL NOT alter how this community has developed and functioned for well over a decade.

 

Trykz

[steelfeathers]

Sorry Bethesda/Zenimax, but you're not special simply by virtue of being a development studio. And you WILL NOT alter how this community has developed and functioned for well over a decade.

 

Trykz

I agree with your idea for how to handle claims of stolen mods - namely, the burden of proof should be on the poster of the "stolen" mod.

 

But my god, the arrogance of this statement I quoted is stunning. It's not just you; I'm seeing it all over the forums these past few days.

 

I hate to break it to you, but modders don't have a "right" to anything. Bethesda is (trying to be) nice to us because they WANT to, not because they have to. FO4/Skyrim BELONG to Bethesda - we don't own that IP simply because we're huge fans. It doesn't work like that. And like it or not, the owners of the IP (read: Bethesda) can decided weather or not they want to allow anyone else to make use of their IP through mods, etc.

 

In point of fact, modders only get away with modding because money usually isn't involved. The whole copyright/IP system can largely ignore us because there would be no monetary gain from attempting to sue us for using the FO4 IP. But it doesn't have to be that way. If Bethesda wanted to be total jerks, they could update our games with DRM to prevent mods from being used at all. Or make it so that the only mods that will function are the ones that we get from their website.

 

All I'm saying is...let's stop acting like we're the ones in charge. We're not. And biting the hand that feeds us will only get us smacked down. Should we ban together and speak up, work WITH Bethesda to get some changes implemented? Yes. Try to wave our dicks around like we're large-and-in-charge? No.

Edited June 7, 2016 by steelfeathers

[Casputin]

Thanks Trykz. It's important to bear in mind that Beth don't have experience vetting and curating mods, and while I doubt they went into their Bethnet experiment with their eyes shut tight there are probably plenty of idiosyncrasies in the modding community that they need to learn about.

I feel a lot of pride in the consideration that PC modders and mod users have for each other (most of the time,) and while it's a high standard to hold console users to when they're new to it all, it's pretty clear that they have a lot to learn and need encouragement to learn it.

[iXenite]

 

 

 

Sorry Bethesda/Zenimax, but you're not special simply by virtue of being a development studio. And you WILL NOT alter how this community has developed and functioned for well over a decade.

Trykz

I agree with your idea for how to handle claims of stolen mods - namely, the burden of proof should be on the poster of the "stolen" mod.

 

But my god, the arrogance of this statement I quoted is stunning. It's not just you; I'm seeing it all over the forums these past few days.

 

I hate to break it to you, but modders don't have a "right" to anything. Bethesda is (trying to be) nice to us because they WANT to, not because they have to. FO4/Skyrim BELONG to Bethesda - we don't own that IP simply because we're huge fans. It doesn't work like that. And like it or not, the owners of the IP (read: Bethesda) can decided weather or not they want to allow anyone else to make use of their IP through mods, etc.

 

In point of fact, modders only get away with modding because money usually isn't involved. The whole copyright/IP system can largely ignore us because there would be no monetary gain from attempting to sue us for using the FO4 IP. But it doesn't have to be that way. If Bethesda wanted to be total jerks, they could update our games with DRM to prevent mods from being used at all. Or make it so that the only mods that will function are the ones that we get from their website.

 

All I'm saying is...let's stop acting like we're the ones in charge. We're not. And biting the hand that feeds us will only get us smacked down. Should we ban together and speak up, work WITH Bethesda to get some changes implemented? Yes. Try to wave our dicks around like we're large-and-in-charge? No.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Trykz. It's important to bear in mind that Beth don't have experience vetting and curating mods, and while I doubt they went into their Bethnet experiment with their eyes shut tight there are probably plenty of idiosyncrasies in the modding community that they need to learn about.

I feel a lot of pride in the consideration that PC modders and mod users have for each other (most of the time,) and while it's a high standard to hold console users to when they're new to it all, it's pretty clear that they have a lot to learn and need encouragement to learn it.

 

 

 

These two posts alone made me not hate this thread. Thank you two for the well thought out and logical posts.

 

It's really starting to wear me down looking at the countless threads just like this one. In addition to the same toxic comments I've been reading about Bethesda being the Devil and the destroyer of all mods over and over again.

[Casputin]

Maybe we don't have a right to not have our work stolen but it's a courtesy that Nexus and other modders/ users have afforded to mod authors for a long time, it's become part of the community's self-governance.

Yes, Beth allow us to mod when legally it could be seen as a breach of IP law but it's also worked in their favour as we've extended the life of their games and served as a (fairly) unique selling point for Fallout & Elder Scrolls games. It's a symbiotic relationship, which is why it's worked until now. That symbiotic relationship needs to extend to protecting our work because although we use their assets and insert our content into their game, it's still us who put very real time and effort into what we do. We cannot defend our work on IP / copyright grounds because we're modding so we're relying on Beth to step in on our behalf. I think that's where a lot of this frustration and anger is coming from.

EDIT: Thinking about it, it makes me really appreciate how Nexus treats modders. I was in no way paid by Nexus to say that ;)

Edited June 8, 2016 by Casputin

[Trykz]

 

All I'm saying is...let's stop acting like we're the ones in charge. We're not. And biting the hand that feeds us will only get us smacked down. Should we ban together and speak up, work WITH Bethesda to get some changes implemented? Yes. Try to wave our dicks around like we're large-and-in-charge? No.

 

 

You can call it arrogant all you want. And your assessment of how the legalities of modding/IP extension work could not be further from fact than what you posted. Certain rights stemming from Bethesda's IP extend to EVERY modder by virtue of their creation tool provision. Have you even read the EULA for the CK and ALL of their past toolkit releases? Modders have EVERY RIGHT to protect their hard work.

 

And them patching their games to prevent mod use? Or to prevent the use of mods from sources other than their site? Laughable at best. Would you shoot yourself in the face just to spite the very people who breathe endless life into your games with a consistent flow of new content?

 

Are you new here or something? Because you certainly seem like you're new to all this stuff. We've been doing this for a loooong time. And we're set in our ways. And I'm telling you right now, not even Bethesda will change that. They are certainly NOT the ONLY studio that produces moddable games. And they know it. Let them *lock down* modding as you elude they might. You think things are bad now? You haven't seen anything yet. Especially when a much more understanding studio decides to capitalize on their sudden loss of fanbase and revenue. They might as well start digging their own holes right now.

 

Trykz