Don't get angry, get organised! (Stolen mods)

[iXenite]

 

Good luck winning THAT lawsuit. (Spoilers: several people have tried, in things like the Harry Potter fandom. It didn't go well for them.)

 

But yeah, we're off-topic.

 

I'd win by default.

 

It only costs about $12 to file a claim and become such a pain in the @ss, their lawyers would likely offer up some form of compensation, or at the very least, the immediate removal of said content, just to save the plane fare (since the claim is filed in the locality of the aggrieved party, and their representative must attend to argue the claim)

 

:thumbsup:

 

Trykz

 

 

You do realize that companies have a whole department dedicated just for this sort of thing right? Companies are professionals at lawsuits, and I would double check where the lawsuit would be held. There could be a clause that states otherwise. There could also be a clause that states there is no actual lawsuit and you would just meet with Bethesda and their arbitrator and that would be it. I haven't read the entire EULA, so I don't know what it entails. I do however know not all lawsuits take place where the filer is.

 

Edit:

 

This might be worth sharing. From the Fallout 4 EULA.

 

http://i.imgur.com/qeU7mDj.jpg?1

Edited June 8, 2016 by DaddyDirection

[Purzifal]

Here is an idea for you all, is anyone going to E3 or know anyone that is going to E3. You could always speak to Bethesda there about the issue or highlight the main problems that their system has caused, also try get a personal contact from someone. It is a public event so they wont want a big scene to be caused but if more than a handful of people speak to them about the same issue, they may just listen since there will be a lot of gaming press there that the issue could potential go viral which could cause a rework of their system or it may not.

 

The timing of this could not be perfect with E3 coming up and if modders or mod users that appreciate the modders work on here, speak to them face to face then it gives them no choice but to provide some sort of statement on the spot. the thing about doing this is that you would have to not be harassing about it, be polite about it etc. maybe get a popular YouTuber who supports mods to approach them too.

 

Of course, they could just say "you would have to contact support" but if they care about this enough then they might provide some useful insight to the whole affair.

 

I thought to share this idea with you all since E3 is not long away.

[iXenite]

Here is an idea for you all, is anyone going to E3 or know anyone that is going to E3. You could always speak to Bethesda there about the issue or highlight the main problems that their system has caused, also try get a personal contact from someone. It is a public event so they wont want a big scene to be caused but if more than a handful of people speak to them about the same issue, they may just listen since there will be a lot of gaming press there that the issue could potential go viral which could cause a rework of their system or it may not.

 

The timing of this could not be perfect with E3 coming up and if modders or mod users that appreciate the modders work on here, speak to them face to face then it gives them no choice but to provide some sort of statement on the spot. the thing about doing this is that you would have to not be harassing about it, be polite about it etc. maybe get a popular YouTuber who supports mods to approach them too.

 

Of course, they could just say "you would have to contact support" but if they care about this enough then they might provide some useful insight to the whole affair.

 

I thought to share this idea with you all since E3 is not long away.

 

That is not how it works. The people that are going to speak to Bethesda (and any dev for that matter) have been per-screened ahead of time. If there are any questions they do not want to be askedt, all interviewers will be informed ahead of time to avoid those questions. If an interviewer slips up, or asks a question that veers too closely to the banned questions - they will be asked to ask another questions or rephrase the question entirely. Some random person cannot just walk up to a game dev and ask them what they want.

 

The main event of E3 (the conferences) are attended mostly by industry professionals and members of the media, the rest are invited by the companies attending the show. The floor show is where normal people can buy tickets to go to E3, that is where hands on demos are and post conference interviews will be hosted by the gaming media (like IGN or GameSpot). It is not a open floor where you can meet who you want to, whenever you want to. Many devs do not wander the floor show. I can imagine Todd Howard for instance does not wander the floor to speak with fans.

[Casputin]

I don't think the law and legal action needs to come into it, that's a bit of a nuclear option (no pun intended) and I can't see it ever having a happy ending for anyone involved. It's an extreme, skipping every less-drastic course of action which could be taken.

For now, dialogue with Bethesda / Zenimax is what's needed. Yes, they are a company and profit is their bottom line but I don't think they'll point-blank refuse to enter discussions with the community, they want mods as part of the appeal of Fallout 4 and if modders pull back from their game then they will lose face and potentially profits as a result.

 

I know emotions are running high but please try to keep this thread civilised & constructive, otherwise how is anything positive supposed to come from the discussion? Thank you to those of you who've put ideas forward and kept it civil.

Using E3 as a platform to make a statement isn't a bad idea in one sense. No, speaking to Bethesda won't be possible but keeping it light but visible you could whip yourself up a t-shirt saying what you want to say. Just keep it clean or you might get thrown out. Just an idea. I think organising anything more grand would be near-impossible at this stage, besides people won't want to trade in their E3 experience to protest instead.

AND last but not least, the idea of mods implementing a type of DRM has already been passed around. It might turn out to be the tidiest solution but it'd be a shame to have to take that step.

[Gungho1]

Not my place to wade into modders talk, but the issue really is Beth.net. Under it's current form, it opened up mod access to console gamers, but only through itself, more or less as a closed system...therefore, any mods for consoles have to go through it, which means that mods on the free access sites such as Nexus are all open to poaching.

 

It isn't a PC vs Console thing, as some think (some, being mostly consolers over on Beth forums), but the issue is that the limitations on the consoles (the deal struck between MS/Sony/Zenimax) do limit the problem to Beth.net. As Zenimax controls Beth.net, and adequate protections weren't put in place, it's up to Zenimax to fix the problem...and this problem isn't simply a case of a few mod authors being jerked around, it's actually a legal problem (I made a post on a thread on Beth last night my time, clearly stating the legalities on the basis of what we know, and within the hour Gstaff posted on the same thread...another heart warming 'we love you long time' and no mention of practical action response, but it shows they are watching).

 

To complicate matters are the rumours of a possible E3 announcement of a remastering of Skyrim in conjuction with opening it up to console mods...if that actually turns out to be true, this affair is going to really take off and I suspect that there will be much more trouble to come.

 

The fact is, the only way to stop mods being poached for console is to close down the vehicle by which it's done...and that means that Beth.net needs to go offline until preventative measures can be put in place in it.

 

I strongly suggest that any demands or requests that anyone makes to Zenimax/Beth actually include taking Beth.net offline as a matter of course. It's the only way that you can be certain of protecting yourselves.

[steelfeathers]

Not my place to wade into modders talk, but the issue really is Beth.net. Under it's current form, it opened up mod access to console gamers, but only through itself, more or less as a closed system...therefore, any mods for consoles have to go through it, which means that mods on the free access sites such as Nexus are all open to poaching.

 

It isn't a PC vs Console thing, as some think (some, being mostly consolers over on Beth forums), but the issue is that the limitations on the consoles (the deal struck between MS/Sony/Zenimax) do limit the problem to Beth.net. As Zenimax controls Beth.net, and adequate protections weren't put in place, it's up to Zenimax to fix the problem...and this problem isn't simply a case of a few mod authors being jerked around, it's actually a legal problem (I made a post on a thread on Beth last night my time, clearly stating the legalities on the basis of what we know, and within the hour Gstaff posted on the same thread...another heart warming 'we love you long time' and no mention of practical action response, but it shows they are watching).

 

To complicate matters are the rumours of a possible E3 announcement of a remastering of Skyrim in conjuction with opening it up to console mods...if that actually turns out to be true, this affair is going to really take off and I suspect that there will be much more trouble to come.

 

The fact is, the only way to stop mods being poached for console is to close down the vehicle by which it's done...and that means that Beth.net needs to go offline until preventative measures can be put in place in it.

 

I strongly suggest that any demands or requests that anyone makes to Zenimax/Beth actually include taking Beth.net offline as a matter of course. It's the only way that you can be certain of protecting yourselves.

 

I'm beginning to think that the solution is three-fold:

 

1) Temporary suspend bethesda.net mod downloads until the issue is sorted.

2) Create an easy way for users to flag stolen mods - one click + text box would be best. Have moderators review every claim, and hide or take down mods in response to valid claims.

3) If enough people flag a mod as stolen (say, maybe 5), auto-hide it until the poster can produce proof of ownership or permission.

[tartarsauce2]

point 3's auto-hiding and so on is just censorship and abuseable, and if it is abuseable it will be abused, so it's a no right from the start

anyways, for the longer term, this is the solution, there's a tripartite issue of "paid mods degrading the hobbyist community" or "stolen content on beth.net" and "whaa I want to mod for money" (which isn't the same as wishing you got more money from modding but eh let's consider them anyways the big baby profiteers!)
my proposition solves the problem for all 3 parties(or at least shaves off colossal amounts of the problem for each if not perfectly), and gets bethesda more money

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/4487595-ddp-my-mods-are-down-commence-attack-on-bethesdas-main-platform/?p=39101405

Edited June 9, 2016 by tartarsauce2

[Casputin]

 

I'm beginning to think that the solution is three-fold:

 

1) Temporary suspend bethesda.net mod downloads until the issue is sorted.

2) Create an easy way for users to flag stolen mods - one click + text box would be best. Have moderators review every claim, and hide or take down mods in response to valid claims.

3) If enough people flag a mod as stolen (say, maybe 5), auto-hide it until the poster can produce proof of ownership or permission.

 

I can't realistically see them shutting down Bethnet because it would cost them in the long run and they'd lose face. Sometimes I think half the reason they're so slow to react is because they want to avoid admitting there's a problem unless they absolutely have to.

 

A single button to flag a mod as unauthorised is definitely a winner and likely wouldn't take them too much effort to implement. I'd love to see them vetting their mods before they're posted but that would involve more manpower on their end, something Beth seems reluctant to do but it may be their only realistic option in the end. Flagging stolen mods would require more manpower anyway, to react to claims.

 

point 3's auto-hiding and so on is just censorship and abuseable, and if it is abuseable it will be abused, so it's a no right from the start

 

anyways, for the longer term, this is the solution, there's a tripartite issue of "paid mods degrading the hobbyist community" or "stolen content on beth.net" and "whaa I want to mod for money" (which isn't the same as wishing you got more money from modding but eh let's consider them anyways the big baby profiteers!)

my proposition solves the problem for all 3 parties(or at least shaves off colossal amounts of the problem for each if not perfectly), and gets bethesda more money

 

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/4487595-ddp-my-mods-are-down-commence-attack-on-bethesdas-main-platform/?p=39101405

 

Paid mods... I know sometimes you can't afford to be an idealist but I really don't want people to have to pay for my content, or not have it at all. I know what it's like to be short of cash (I'm pretty goddamn poor) and times are hard for a lot of people at the moment. If I can give them something they like which I've enjoyed making and feel pride in and it's free and puts a smile on their face, that's pretty special. i don't want a few theives to ruin that for everyone, that would be an awful outcome.

 

I should point out that I'm not posting on DDP's thread because the tone isn't all that constructive, I am reading through the posts as they come along though. I don't agree with malicious code being any kind of solution but a simple script to disable unauthorised ports of mods could be a decent step to take, as has been pointed out a half-baked port of a PC mod could cause its own problems anyway.

[Jeenine]

Make a list of people who had their mod stolen, use this list as an argument to justify the problem at hand.
Now with this list you can go contact media outlets such as IGN, Gamespot, Gameranx, etc. or independent ones such as ______ (insert whoever you think would cover this story and attract enough attention). I think this kind of viral news coverage would force them to take action.
You could also directly contact the community manager at Bethesda especially if you had your mod stolen.
In the end, I think a flag system with a moderator is enough to solve the issue, which is pretty much how most website handle theft. Whoever gets caught gets IP ban, etc.

However, I believe they are probably working on something to solve this at the moment, their website has been up for how long, a week and a half, I would give them a bit of time before assuming anything.

Meanwhile, keep up the good work, don't let it stop you from modding!

[tartarsauce2]

 

point 3's auto-hiding and so on is just censorship and abuseable, and if it is abuseable it will be abused, so it's a no right from the start

 

anyways, for the longer term, this is the solution, there's a tripartite issue of "paid mods degrading the hobbyist community" or "stolen content on beth.net" and "whaa I want to mod for money" (which isn't the same as wishing you got more money from modding but eh let's consider them anyways the big baby profiteers!)

my proposition solves the problem for all 3 parties(or at least shaves off colossal amounts of the problem for each if not perfectly), and gets bethesda more money

 

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/4487595-ddp-my-mods-are-down-commence-attack-on-bethesdas-main-platform/?p=39101405

 

Paid mods... I know sometimes you can't afford to be an idealist but I really don't want people to have to pay for my content, or not have it at all. I know what it's like to be short of cash (I'm pretty goddamn poor) and times are hard for a lot of people at the moment. If I can give them something they like which I've enjoyed making and feel pride in and it's free and puts a smile on their face, that's pretty special. i don't want a few theives to ruin that for everyone, that would be an awful outcome.

 

I should point out that I'm not posting on DDP's thread because the tone isn't all that constructive, I am reading through the posts as they come along though. I don't agree with malicious code being any kind of solution but a simple script to disable unauthorised ports of mods could be a decent step to take, as has been pointed out a half-baked port of a PC mod could cause its own problems anyway.

 

I actually got my first post on these forums deleted because I was talking about capitalist exploitation or something and greed in regards to paid modding :tongue:

funny story, but it highlights where I'm coming from

this idea I linked to that you're commenting on is actually a new idea I came up with before the theft thing became an issue, because I figured the way the gaming industry is going and the whole world is going, and my experience watching things go to hell in a handbasket has given me... insight into the situations like these so in my paranoia I made the idea as a preparation for times to come

 

so like, this is what I've come up with based on what I want, what I've seen before and been disillusioned by, think of it as similar to the three-way between sith, the empire and the republic at the end of the canon star wars universe period, fin.

(or montesqieu's division of the powers of government)

all of these "either-or" arguments and suggestions don't satisfy enough people to have the power, and they satisfy the wrong people for the wrong reasons, I WANT the aos sidhe (modding community) to be saved, but it's been opened up to these problems and there's no way to put the cat into the bag again forever, even if rebuffed, I'm personally thinking that bethesda's gone too far with this project to back down and at the same time now that they've got the "console pleb crowd" on their side chanting for more the only way to deal with this is to facilitate it, ON THE OTHER HAND, facilitation gives the artist community more power too, so it's a tradeoff

 

and I don't mean a compromise, I mean a tradeoff, I mean, literally, you are trading one form of existence for a slightly different form, you will lose some of the small time sleepy town aspect of the modding community but the artisan aspect will be more intact than other ways of dealing with this crisis

 

also, as for "constructive" I can see how shying away from angry blithering is useful but at the same time, watch out for an "of the facts of the matter" style critique where constructive means you can only say "yes" to someone else's demands in different ways or else you're hindering "progress" like so many gordon freemans to doctor breen

 

things WILL change, the thing that matters is that the things we value are intact, and to some extent it will require things we're *less* inclined to value also remain intact, as a tactical situation

but we have to get to agreement on what actually constitutes a tactically necessary thing in said scenario

Edited June 9, 2016 by tartarsauce2