Don't get angry, get organised! (Stolen mods)

[Casputin]

I like what you're saying and I agree that we're definitely at a point where things won't be as they were before, things are going to have to change and it's a matter of balancing which elements are more important to preserve as best we can. That said, keeping modding free is perhaps the one thing I would value above all else, it's not just that I'm in love with the idea of modding existing as a non-commercial enterprise based on respect, it's that I think that idea is at the very heart of the modding community and removing that element could divide the community in a way it never recovers from.

 

also, as for "constructive" I can see how shying away from angry blithering is useful but at the same time, watch out for an "of the facts of the matter" style critique where constructive means you can only say "yes" to someone else's demands in different ways or else you're hindering "progress" like so many gordon freemans to doctor breen

 

Yes, one reason I'm avoiding DDP's thread is the toxic nature of some statements but being perfectly honest, part of it is that I don't like arguements and I don't want to end up on the wrong end of vitriolic comments (which would very possibly never happen, it's just an anxiety.) I'm not trying to tell people what to think, I just wanted this thread to be free of angry comments and any putting down of other people who want to speak their mind. That comes from being someone shy who can't stand quiet people always having their voice drowned out by loud people and - at worst - bullies. I'm not saying that's what's happening in other threads, again, it's just an anxiety.

[Legedur]

 

I agree with your idea for how to handle claims of stolen mods - namely, the burden of proof should be on the poster of the "stolen" mod.

But my god, the arrogance of this statement I quoted is stunning. It's not just you; I'm seeing it all over the forums these past few days.

I hate to break it to you, but modders don't have a "right" to anything. Bethesda is (trying to be) nice to us because they WANT to, not because they have to. FO4/Skyrim BELONG to Bethesda - we don't own that IP simply because we're huge fans. It doesn't work like that. And like it or not, the owners of the IP (read: Bethesda) can decided weather or not they want to allow anyone else to make use of their IP through mods, etc.

In point of fact, modders only get away with modding because money usually isn't involved. The whole copyright/IP system can largely ignore us because there would be no monetary gain from attempting to sue us for using the FO4 IP. But it doesn't have to be that way. If Bethesda wanted to be total jerks, they could update our games with DRM to prevent mods from being used at all. Or make it so that the only mods that will function are the ones that we get from their website.

All I'm saying is...let's stop acting like we're the ones in charge. We're not. And biting the hand that feeds us will only get us smacked down. Should we ban together and speak up, work WITH Bethesda to get some changes implemented? Yes. Try to wave our dicks around like we're large-and-in-charge? No.

 

Quote is from "Steelfeathers" . I messed up the quote button.

 

 

Hello. I don't have Fallout 4. I just came here out of curiocity after reading about this issue in the Skyrim forum. Let me tell you my short story. I first saw Skyrim at the home of a relative of mine years ago. I didn't like it, namely for the excessive blood and worse, for the fact that i am in that unlucky percentage of people, who suffer from motion sickness with 1st person games that include wobbly camera. I also didn't really like the combat system, with the archery part being a complete let down. After some years, i bought Skyrim. Why? Because of the mods, including mod that stops the camera wobble ( http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/38193/? ) Without this mod, Bethesda would have never, ever, seen my money. Simple as that, because without it, i feel nausea within 10 minutes. Not to mention the unofficial Skyrim patch that makes a beta game, appear like it's final.

 

Companies don't have a heart. The modders are in a symbiotic form of relation with Bethesda, where they get creative and happy and Bethesda gets $$$ indirectly from their work. That's the simple truth. Skyrim without mods, is a beta, mediocre game. Skyrim becomes one of the most divulged games even years after release, only thanks to the modders. Bethesda knows it too and that's why it lets modders do their thing. If Skyrim isn't amongst the long list of "good, but old and obsolete RPGs", is thanks to the modders. The games that don't let modders free hands, become forgotten in a couple of years. Skyrim keeps selling to this day, because of the immense mod content available, that makes Skyrim, a game of several years ago, work better than vanilla, look better than vanilla and play better than vanilla. Don't take my word for it, take Bethesda's, that prepares the "Skyrim definitive version", as a means, to relaunch SKyrim to console users, with mods being a main feature... Remilk that old cow of many years ago, thanks to the...mods.

 

I am going back to the Skyrim forum now, bye all.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Legedur

[tartarsauce2]

I get where you're coming from too Casputin, but, like
you're right, and I share that concern, but I've seen so many previously SEEMINGLY stable enterprises(ventures, groups, communities) disintegrate to the new world as it stands
I mean, literally, like, the world order from pre-2001 has ruptured, are you old enough to remember the before times even? it's not even like "things change" it's literally we had a world order, and that order has been *destroyed* 1998 to now is not the same as 1970 to 1998 - and I'm talking beyond politics or video games here I'm talking about how humanity reflects upon itself in a way, it's not a change that is bright new and shiny it's the kind of change where you can't run away from problems anymore - the internet went from what it was to being a redefinition of society as a feudal village (spying on and reporting each other to the authorities constantly for lack of morality, if the EU hate speech stuff for example is any note) and there's just so many ways this has happened
I don't know how exactly to put it, but hiding away isn't an option basically

the changes are voracious, the old can NOT survive, the new isn't a submission to those nightmares, it's a reinvigoration to deal with them, you have been permanently (or at least inevitably) opened up to the wider world, you can either have a gradual approach that continues symbiosis or a fatal approach that kills the host

the reason why I think bundled mods for DLC on consoles could work is that there IS in fact an argument that people would be able to make free variants of mods etc, it "unfairly" favours PC's over consoles, and this socially induced schism (it's not a terrible technical hurdle to introduce paid mods for everyone which is a problem scenario) makes for issues

so these are issues with my suggestion, and I'm aware of them, so it's up to individuals to come up with whether or not they like or dislike the suggestion and why, but my inspiration comes from previous relations in history between artisans and patrons, where there were workshops and groups and guilds, but at least it wasn't fully corporatized (a certain adolf hitler was kicked out of one of those art schools in fact lol) and there's always been independent street artists (to this day) who make their living painting on the streets for tourists etc, so the system could work as a way to allow outlets to people without totally destroying the community hopefully, although whatever happens there's a stressor to it (including nothing being done)

popularity, votes etc could be setup, with PC modding as the wellspring from which legitimacy of a modder/mods comes from, to sell on consoles as bundles, this is the protection I'm thinking could salvage the idea that elsewise I wouldn't think is very good, but the difficulty is how to set this up

because I think the big big difference is between consoles and PC users, why don't we re-establish in a more open for console users form, the traditional dynamic of PC vs console, with PC users as the perpetual beta class of users for mods and the consoles as the cash cow

a sort of development and then patent system for sales hahaha, thing is it'd require bethesda to accept this fully, and the only thing I think it might do is buy time, because in this market I don't see any competitors to bethesda, but in the future perhaps there will be, and if bethesda keeps doing this pushing thing it's doing then perhaps there'll be another ship to jump to :wink:

because I do see modders as "the proletariat" :tongue: or something, the producers, but I don't think galt's gulch or some ayn rand style approach is going to be realistic lmao, but in the meantime look how workers, the creators of wealth are treated all over the world, if not you then who else? well someone will, there's 7 billion people in the world and everyone's replaceable provided the capital exists in a world like this, the trick is how to change it right back

hence why I used the term exploitation and I say paid mods vs hobbyist modding community (and my first post ever on these forums got deleted)
and now, people here understand hopefully why I use broader terms to discuss a seemingly simple and unique situation like this

Edited June 9, 2016 by tartarsauce2

[Jeoshua]

Back on track: We need contacts at Bethesda to talk to, and an organized channel to talk to them from. I think I might know someone who has contact with a Bethesda developer, so I'm going to go chat them up for the info.

 

And you're not going to find those on nexusmods.com. You're not going to find them on twitter and you're not going to find them on the bethsoft.net forums or the bethesda.net mod archives.

 

And you're not going to find them because any Bethsoft employees you find cannot make legally binding statements about a Bethesda game. And Bethesda cannot make make comments on something that the lawyers at Zenimax made for them. And Zenimax doesn't come to any of those sites. And any employee that talks out of turn would be fired. We're dealing with three companies in a large corporate edifice, here, and not all of them have a legal department.

 

That's why we've seem Bethesda employees issues statements telling us that DMCA takedowns are our only option for definite removal of mods. They've seen what Zenimax made them agree to. They probably think it's bonkers, and want to see a third party challenge it.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Jeoshua

[Casputin]

Tartar, I don't think you can rely so much on history to provide an answer. Yes, it's good practice to learn from the mistakes of the past and to find precedent for modern events but the future is uncertain, what has passed can only tell you so much.

 

Things have changed a lot since the 80s (I was around for most of them.) I try to live in the present and stay as aware as I can of what's happening around me. I see everything being monetised and everyone believing they are a beautiful and unique snowflake who has a right to whatever they want, never mind that those rights are absolutely bound to clash with the "rights" of others. Console users do not have a right to mods, just because Bethesda has put the framework in place for them to be available. PC users do not have the right to them either and I've seen plenty of shitty comments on peoples' pages from users who demand they get what they want immediately. The way to deal with this attitude cannot be to take steps to cater to them or they have no incentive to moderate their behaviour.

 

If you take torrenting as an example, musicians and their labels were losing a lot of money to piracy and that hit musicians worse than the labels as the money the artists recieved from sales was already an unfairly small cut. The evolution of the situation has lead to streaming services like Spotify which pay the artists almost nothing but are a good enough compromise for the record labels. The creator, the originator of the valued item, is disrespected and the creative work is devalued but the company get what they want.

 

The second modders start selling their work, they are no longer paid in respect and gratitude, their work is no longer a work of love but of... just work, like any other, work for money. That will undoubtedly have an impact on the attitude of people towards modders and modders towards each other. You make it sound like it's inevitable when it's anything but. If you resign yourself too early to an outcome you ultimately don't want, you do yourself a disservice.

 

"Do not go gentle into that good night,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

[tartarsauce2]

well aware of those problematic dynamics, but I'm not living in the past, I'm just mentioning these things, the old world order literally vanishing before our own eyes and so on because with these things disappearing *we* need to create new systems, now. or would you like random jackass 2970110 to mob up and get something that doesn't work for anyone in a constant nightmare of reactionary and counter-reactionary trolling and corporatization?

"whatever does not spring from a man's free choice, or is only the result of construction or guidance does not enter into his true being but remains alien to his true nature, he does not perform it with truly human energies but merely mechanical exactness, and if a man acts in a mechanical way... ....we may admire what he does, but despise who he is"
4:42 for the thing

(speaking of artists etc, have VEVO lol)

but piracy isn't responsible for musical artists getting paid only a little that was already done by record labels, it's only responsible for disallowing record labels to profit as much off of it, disincentivizing them to control artists as much and as often, which has opened up other venues for artists independent of those label contracts, this is a key difference in why I don't oppose generic piracy and do oppose stealing mods from modders, which is completely separated from a collective body, you lose your personhood when you enter a cubicle, you don't deserve it outside of that collective anyways, not simply because (traitor to art) which is arguably not really a reason at all, but rather because you have put yourself into the position where noone would view you as a human with agency because you have bargained it all away

this is why I'm making this with bethesda contacting individual artists about whether THEY want it monetized or not, or offering commissions for pieces/relying on the judgement of the artist themselves and the community here

the old artisanal methodology Edited June 9, 2016 by tartarsauce2

[tartarsauce2]

mostly, this video is about people that craft things, in antiquity, the system I'm proposing is in fact a sort of trickery cop-out, a throwback to the roman days in terms of economics, and patronage system for arts and skilled craftsmen (modders are both)
I literally talked about re-establishing lines along plebs and non - back in those days people still made random little things as well, not just for sale after all, because it was actually difficult to make something saleable, it had to generally be higher quality, and some people would do high quality works regardless for the hell of it, because >art

keep in mind that the treatment of plebs in this case is by console or non, and kind of tied to money similar to how plebs were, but the point is that it's a stable method, that keeps everyone safe while keeping things somewhat open for said console crowd but not overwhelming the artisans, it took quite a while for the dictators to destroy rome, and I've got no illusion this proposal is about anything other than buying time - I know what corporations do

but we've already got a plebs/patrician sort of system going on, just by the very architecture of the systems and distribution platforms.... so why not just ameliorate the problems with it?

In ancient Rome, the term plebs was the general body of free Roman citizens who were not patricians, as determined by the census. From the 4th century BC or earlier, known as commoners or part of lower social status

Literary references to the 'plebs', however, usually mean the ordinary citizens of Rome as a whole, as distinguished from the elite—a sense retained by "plebeian" in English. In the very earliest days of Rome, plebeians were any tribe without advisers to the King. In time, the word – which is related to the Greek word for crowd, plethos – came to mean the common people.

god I hope some other options in the pipeline pan out
I mean if things can stay the same then great, I don't even like this idea a lot compared to what exists now (minus the stealing)

Edited June 9, 2016 by tartarsauce2

[ekRapid]

I'd like to mentioned a touching moment today when a fellow nexus user, declared my uploaded mod as stolen. I use a different nickname on Bethesda and it's easy to get confused.

[Deleted54170User]

I would like to add that, after reading the TERMS and reading the CONDITIONS unless I have a number of friends who with I share my work, it won't ever get uploaded. Even when I thought I had made friends here the occasion to upload my work was dashed by, too true, hardware failure.

 

Also, I found so many of the ideas for modding I had were just because stuff in the game that was caused by the company not having access to variety of OSes, decoders for 3 and 1/2 floppy disks players, CD and DVD players, and a number of the decoders for a variety of Video cards. Many times while playing the game I thought to fire a flame at the company. They caused me to get angry in the days of MORROWIND.

 

I learned the hard way that they take offense, just like modders take offense, to flaming.

 

In the dying heat of my passion desirous to get the full realism of the game, I quit flaming. I tired from the waste of time it caused. I learned to mod.

 

In the cooled temper I read the modding tools instructions. In the same state I read the Terms and Conditions so many times trying to make heads or tails out of the laws, I got tired again, hungry, and angered again.

 

One day after realizing the difficulty of modding I was reminiscing about ownership. I recalled, once upon a time, the legal text for purchases ended with recognizable sentiment.

 

The feelings that built inside me were dispensed with, because the last line said, "My lawyers made me say that."

 

They're people everyone is mad at. Childlike, to childish, and some should not be attacked because the person holding the plate of food they receive is the only person in control. Don't tease or relent if your anger was spent.

 

Bethnet the food on your plate may start getting cold because people will get bold and pull on the elbow holding it back until you show us you're still human.

 

So we can all get back to our lawyerless lives Bethnet, Bethesda Softworks; Apologize, make amends by giving up some of your stashed bin of good, and get to improving your work so, so many modders won't have to eat another cold bite that do make mods out of the goodness of their childlike hearts for us all, for you too, for free.

 

Remember, "Your Lawyers made you say that."

[Jeoshua]

Remember, "Your Lawyers made you say that."

 

You just hit what I've been trying to say this whole time. People keep taking Bethesda to task because it hasn't been made clear that this is all stuff that's coming down from Zenimax. These are the same people who preemptively sued Notch for trying to trademark the word "Scrolls".