elderiii Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 I will definitely have a Thief archetype as one of my 3 main characters. I'm waiting to see what the racial abilities and bonuses are to see if I roll with that character first or a Warrior archetype first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistat Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 (edited) Again... Assassins are WARRIORS... they wont be punished in a boss battle. Sure, you would be used to having your sneak multipliers, but your bow is JUST AS EFFECTIVE as an archers. Same with daggers and 1H weapons... you do JUST AS WELL as a warrior. In terms of light and heavy armors, they are made to be balanced, speed vs effectiveness, not sneak vs effectiveness (event though passively weight does effect sneak). Poisons and their effectiveness are also an added benefit of being an assassin. The stealth aspect (again) is an approach to the 2 ways to play. And as an assassin the only skill that you need is sneak, and in that tree you can hide in plain sight and get multipliers. Alchemy and reverse pickpocketing would benefit a dedicated assassin, but even then sneak is needed to apply these skills effectively by appropriate stealthy, indirect means. hey I'm just sayin, Oblivion found a way to make assassin pretty bad so I don't put it beyond skyrim, with all the buffs to sneak attack damage and stealth I am assuming that there will be even more of a repercussion to general combat damage. If they didn't have any, then everyone would level stealth.. since their are no bonuses for sticking in the thief trees and no 'major skills' it will level just as easily for a heavy armor wearing, warhammer wielding orc fighter as a dedicated thief meaning, there is no reason for anyone not to use it.... it would just be free sneak attack damage for everyone lol... then anyone, even that full plate warriors can be an 'assassins' as they take off thier bulky armor for a few seconds and sneak behind a guy, crack his head with a warhammer, and if worst comes to worst go into the menu to pause their game and put back on all their armor... it'd be stupid. To stop that I am assuming, assassins are going to be doing a fair amount less damage out of stealth than dedicated warriors since I doubt they changed it so you can't equip/unequip gear in combat (wich would only help the problem untill people level heavy armor to the point were they get the perk so it weighs nothing and becomes for all known stealth intensive purposes light armor... :/ ) Edited October 26, 2011 by Alistat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odai Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 -My stuff- hey I'm just sayin, Oblivion found a way to make assassin pretty bad so I don't put it beyond skyrim, with all the buffs to sneak attack damage and stealth I am assuming that there will be even more of a repercussion to general combat damage. If they didn't have any, then everyone would level stealth.. since their are no bonuses for sticking in the thief trees and no 'major skills' it will level just as easily for a heavy armor wearing, warhammer wielding orc fighter as a dedicated thief meaning, there is no reason for anyone not to use it.... it would just be free sneak attack damage for everyone lol... then anyone, even that full plate warriors can be an 'assassins' as they take off thier bulky armor for a few seconds and sneak behind a guy, crack his head with a warhammer, and if worst comes to worst go into the menu to pause their game and put back on all their armor... it'd be stupid. To stop that I am assuming, assassins are going to be doing a fair amount less damage out of stealth than dedicated warriors since I doubt they changed it so you can't equip/unequip gear in combat (wich would only help the problem untill people level heavy armor to the point were they get the perk so it weighs nothing and becomes for all known stealth intensive purposes light armor... :/ ) Actually sneak attack multipliers are perks that need to be unlocked by using sneak... even the lower ones :) Source: our own information thread. So a mace wielding (since 2H doesnt get a multiplier) orc can indeed benefit, if it is willing to train up sneak high enough to unlock the perk. As to the "anyone can do it" that is kinda the point to their new approach with Skyrim. Again not free attack damage because, 1 you have to level up sneak slightly, 2 you have to spend a perk on the bonus, and 3 you have to physically sneak up on the person to utilize the bonus. As to the assassins being weak in Oblivion, I was an assassin, and with some poison my arrows and invisibility went a long way. In this game arrows a powerful, and harder to come by option, alchemy is blind, and sneaking multipliers require some skill to utilize which makes it take dedication but worth using. Taking off armor doesnt make you all of a sudden a sneaking god, however that has always been the case if you take off your shoes. And I have been a heavy armor assassin (sneak perk where weight of boots doesnt effect sneak + weight of heavy armor is cut) so it isnt ridiculous, it is a player choice. So you think that a sneak multiplier to a bow that does 2 hit kills multiplied wont be better than not sneaking, having enemies running at you, and taking multiple shots to kill when backpedaling has been cut down extensively? Yeah I like my sneak option, especially with the upgraded AI patrol, detection and group attack dynamics. And again... how would an assassin (who kills the same amount of enemies) deal less damage than a "dedicated warrior"... the only plausible answer is that their multipliers enable them to do more damage at lower skill levels= fewer hits = slower leveling. This seems balanced, and nothing stops an assassin from training or from sneaking away from conflict whereas a warrior would be stuck in any mess that it creates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krewjew90 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Since attributes no longer exist, a warrior with a one hand glass sword and a skill of 50 with one handed weapons will hit for the exact same damage as a thief or mage with the same weapon and skill (granted they utilize the damage perks for one handed weapons). The game does not know that your character is a stealth character and will not make you weaker. It only takes into account your skill levels and perks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistat Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 (edited) (since 2H doesnt get a multiplier)thnks didn't know that As to the assassins being weak in Oblivion, I was an assassin, and with some poison my arrows.. ecx...was more refering to melee As to the "anyone can do it" that is kinda the point to their new approach with Skyrim. back on point you can't compare weapon or even magic leveling and stealth leveling, they are entirely different. On one hand you get to chose 1, 2, maybe at most 4 of like 12 different ways to attack and you have to stick with it, giving up any chance at being good at any of the others. When it comes to stealth (and most likely restoration too) there is nothing you have to give up since there is no 'stat leveling' or 'major skill' system like in Oblivion. So still, the point of what I was saying is that atm seemingly anyone can be a thief level sneak since its leveling speed takes no hits when making your charector... so any dedicated warrior who just whims it (without giving up anything) can be an assassin while dedicated thiefs become nothing but common city criminals. Its an odd move by the Bethesda team to say the least... one that will make the only reason a charector won't be a 'stealthy healer' in addition to everything else either some unmentioned mechanic Bethesda worked into the game oorr roleplaying lol So you think that a sneak multiplier to a bow that does 2 hit kills multiplied wont be better than not sneaking, having enemies running at you, and taking multiple shots to kill when backpedaling has been cut down extensively? Yeah I like my sneak option, especially with the upgraded AI patrol, detection and group attack dynamic. And again... how would an assassin (who kills the same amount of enemies) deal less damage than a "dedicated warrior"... the only plausible answer is that their multipliers enable them to do more damage at lower skill levels= fewer hits = slower leveling. This seems balanced, and nothing stops an assassin from training or from sneaking away from conflict whereas a warrior would be stuck in any mess that it creates. I'm talking about balance you seem to be talking about how you want an assassin....wait you like Skyrim.. I like Skyrim tooI like assassins, OMG you like assassins too!!lets be friends ;D oh if you want to get back on topic just lemme know Edited October 27, 2011 by Alistat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odai Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 typed a nice reply, but the forums were down when posting it... Basically it was... a warrior who sneaks benefits as much as a thief who uses a bow. A mage who can block benefits as much as a warrior who can heal. A mage who can make potions benefits as much as a thief who can enchant. The skills are interwoven and no one archetype benefits over the other. Stealth is a lifestye choice which involves avoiding detection, and when attack is needed the ability to do it quickly and quietly. Most of the time these choices involve getting into or out of an area by secret means. Lockpicking, pickpocketing... etc. A thief is never just a thief. They use a bow or a dagger, or magic that conceals or harms. A warrior can just be hack and slash, or they can skirmish, get the surprise on the enemy and finish them off directly. To think that an assassin is any less beneficial than an archer who chooses to sneak sometimes is to overlook a key aspect. These are names we give ourselves. In the end you are sneaking before you engage. You are doing the same thing. Then to say that light armor vs heavy armor... its player preference. Poison or no poison- preference, patience, or money. You look at it as sealed off in one direction, when in reality they are all available and all viable means to accomplish whatever need be. An assassin would attack a dragon with a poisoned bow... if they are attacked they probably wont have sneak as an option. But an archer would be a little better at the bow (no poisons and no sneak bonuses) but it too wouldnt be getting the sneak benefit. In the end... you and I are arguing over a trivial matter that neither of us can fully answer until the game comes out... I believe that the skills are all as dedicated as you choose to be in them... should a NFL star be punished because they are smart in chemistry? Will it be beneficial most of the time? When it is beneficial will he be prepared to face the challenge? You believe that its unfair that a person can push themselves and broaden their horizons. A warrior who can pick locks... a mage who can don heavy armor... a thief who can enchant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistat Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 (edited) typed a nice reply, but the forums were down when posting it...Its happened to me a few times, I feel your pain >< and srry but Wooof.. seems the point I was trying to make completely flew over your head. I have no qualm with cohesion.I have no problem with customization.I don't dislike quirky charectors. I never mentioned those things. I was talking about balance about all specs being able, no encouraged, to become assassin because their is no repercussion, assassin isn't just a spec anymore it is everyone with a weapon. Its a fantastic melee/utility skill that seems to have become a free skill neither limited like weapon choice nor dissuaded by lost stats or a lost major skill slot(like in Oblivion). The only draw back I see happening is that you might level a bit faster since stealth is also leveling with you but without the old 'Oblivion stat system' that's a marginal loss, so unless Bethesda has some other mechanic they havn't mentioned yet like I said a few times already its seems pretty out of wack. Sorry but everything you have said so far just misses those points by a fair margin :/ every toon is 'a thief' in Skyrim, you don't choose to be or not to be, in the quest to be all you can be you just are... its just a thought, something I'm a little inclined to think will be true, and if so surely modded up in a few weeks ;D should a NFL star be punished because they are smart in chemistry? a better comparison would be 'is it imbalanced if you can slowly download chemistry knowledge from your I-pod to your mind and then get paid 100$ a day for just having that knowledge?' and oh of cource its offered to everyone so even though you have your main job(aka skills) its shear profit on the side no matter who you are... because thats allot like what stealth in Skyrim is looking like to me right now lol *tips his hat to you*lol, anyways you win the long winded post war, I actually was running out of will power to read threw the entire block after a bit >< Edited October 27, 2011 by Alistat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odai Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 its ok. I think I get it now... And if I am right my answer is this... yes M'aiq is in the game. At any rate... players skills will simply increase with what they use... kinda like jumping vs running, sneak MAY be a "mobility increase", but I read somewhere that you level up quickly when you get sneak attacks. I think a lot of people will be surprised at what their real major and minor skills are. I certainly liked cheating in oblivion by making my least used skills my major skills... turns out I still ended up leveling up even though I had no idea how I could use such "useless" skills so often. And no... not everyone is an assassin... everyone is a dragonslayer! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stycks Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 My play style with the TES games have always been stealthy oriented. Skyrim will be no different. I will probably play out the thieves guild first, then seek the Dark Brotherhood afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistat Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 The only other thing I could hope for would be Morrowind Style loot :D were houses and shops had their best items, actually in the house, sitting on counters, shiny and everything, just begging to be stolen... lol such good times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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