Is America really turning Socialist

[kvnchrist]

Let me first explain to you, my dream.

If I ever would gain the money, I would like to purchase a plot of land to create a moderately self sustaining commune, and fill it with artists, scientists and inventors to create a world devoid of the restrictions of religion and politics. They would have full sway to experiment and to evaluate every faset of science and knowledge. There would be an artist colony, as well for every form of self expression and teachers and tutors for every artform.

 

People who were willing to work and live off the land, would be welcome to do so. There would be fields, graineries bakeries and livestock, vineyards, for this purpose, but every facet of these would be purely natural. I would have a free clinic, an amphitheater and a cafeteria and a winery for those people who would need them, but people who lived there would have their own houses in which to live and no restrictions would be put on their lifestyles, as long as they were consenting adults, above the age of consent. I believe the age should be 16 or over. They could live there as long as they were productive within the society, or had been for an extended time and had reached the age of retirement. The only thing that would be banned would be those who continually caused problems. There would be a counsel of elders, from all the pursuits, that would take up these matters. The laws would be just and measured.

 

I was thinking we might have tours for those interested in what was going on there or from the colleges that may wish to partner with the commune. We would have an outside structure that would sell products and artwork that were made there and the proceeds would be distributed first to the creators and then the remainder of the complex. This way people would see the fruits of their labors, before anyone else.

 

As I believe that this type of social structure could work I have my doubts about the current political structure of America. This conglomerate of ideals that demonize one group against the other is absolutely criminal.

 

The main thing in the I want your money, because you are evil and greedy mindset is that once the revenues of the rich fall down to your income level, then you become the new rich and are just as vulnerable. What is more greedy. Someone that works for and expects the fruits of their labor or someone who wants to take more from them, because they have more to take. This idea of giving back is something the government should be doing, since they've demonstrated, over and over that they can't be responsible with the money we give them, now.

 

Is this true Socialism or is it just a grab for power. Can there be anything like social justice when the politically powerful define fairness, while removing themselves from the equation? If they do this, do they really want equality, or to be our rulers.

[marharth]

America is one of the most capitalist countries in the world, its not changing anytime soon.

 

Socialism is generally either considered having most means of production state(government) owned, or having a huge number of social programs.

 

The USA does not have very many social programs compared to the rest of the world, and our government certainly does not control the means of production.

 

What you just described is similar a Marx style communist government. A system in which everyone takes place in the means of production and everyone shares. This could work pretty good on a small scale, but when it grows larger more people want to grab power instead of being somewhat equal.

[HeyYou]

And of late, "socialist" has been used as a scare tactic by politicians, with it's negative connotations.

[grannywils]

kvnchrist, there is a community built somewhat, although not entirely along the lines you have described. It is in Humboldt, Arizona. It is called Arcosanti and began in 1970. The original intent had more to do with arcology than socialism. Arcology is the fusion of architecture with ecology or the environment. I will give you a link to one of the many websites available regarding Arcosanti in case you are interested. http://www.arcosanti.org/today/

 

It is not exactly what you are describing. However, I have been there, and many of the principles you describe are lived out by those who chose to live and work there. It is quite an interesting project. Among other things, they make bells out of naturally occuring resources, such as clay and metal, which they sell to the public as part of a their means of sustaining themselves. (just, as an aside, I own two of them, and they make a lovely sound).

[Marxist ßastard]

I would like to purchase a plot of land to create a moderately self sustaining commune, and fill it with artists, scientists and inventors to create a world devoid of the restrictions of religion and politics. They would have full sway to experiment and to evaluate every faset of science and knowledge. There would be an artist colony, as well for every form of self expression and teachers and tutors for every artform.

I honestly can't decide whether to tell you that this is a verbatim copy of the plot of Bioshock, give you a price quote on a one-way trip to Somalia, or encourage you to post “world's top artists, scientists, and engineers wanted for organic-farming/bell-making commune in 0.2 acre backyard; PARASITES NEED NOT APPLY” on Craigslist. Literally, I just do not know where to start.

 

So your idea is technically untrollable. Congratulations?

[Nintii]

Let me first explain to you, my dream.

If I ever would gain the money, I would like to purchase a plot of land to create a moderately self sustaining commune, and fill it with artists, scientists and inventors to create a world devoid of the restrictions of religion and politics. They would have full sway to experiment and to evaluate every faset of science and knowledge. There would be an artist colony, as well for every form of self expression and teachers and tutors for every artform.

 

People who were willing to work and live off the land, would be welcome to do so. There would be fields, graineries bakeries and livestock, vineyards, for this purpose, but every facet of these would be purely natural. I would have a free clinic, an amphitheater and a cafeteria and a winery for those people who would need them, but people who lived there would have their own houses in which to live and no restrictions would be put on their lifestyles, as long as they were consenting adults, above the age of consent. I believe the age should be 16 or over. They could live there as long as they were productive within the society, or had been for an extended time and had reached the age of retirement. The only thing that would be banned would be those who continually caused problems. There would be a counsel of elders, from all the pursuits, that would take up these matters. The laws would be just and measured.

 

I was thinking we might have tours for those interested in what was going on there or from the colleges that may wish to partner with the commune. We would have an outside structure that would sell products and artwork that were made there and the proceeds would be distributed first to the creators and then the remainder of the complex. This way people would see the fruits of their labors, before anyone else.

 

As I believe that this type of social structure could work I have my doubts about the current political structure of America. This conglomerate of ideals that demonize one group against the other is absolutely criminal.

 

The main thing in the I want your money, because you are evil and greedy mindset is that once the revenues of the rich fall down to your income level, then you become the new rich and are just as vulnerable. What is more greedy. Someone that works for and expects the fruits of their labor or someone who wants to take more from them, because they have more to take. This idea of giving back is something the government should be doing, since they've demonstrated, over and over that they can't be responsible with the money we give them, now.

 

Is this true Socialism or is it just a grab for power. Can there be anything like social justice when the politically powerful define fairness, while removing themselves from the equation? If they do this, do they really want equality, or to be our rulers.

 

 

POINT 1 ..... "... devoid of the restrictions of religion & politics ..." not likely as people always tend to gravitate to certain leanings ... you make it sound like some hippy commune of peace and love without parameters ... they always end up in chaos ... people will always look for order, and religion and politics grant these ... perhaps your initial "test group" will embrace this concept with vigor but give it a year or two and it will begin to crumble.

The more "intelligent" the group, the more they will seek for order.

 

POINT 2 .... "They would have full sway to experiment and to evaluate every faset of science and knowledge ..." There have been a couple of people who've tried that ... Hitler's doctors experimenting on people and even cutting them open without giving them anasthetics ... no thank you, we honetsly don't need a bunch of "out of control" people running around cutting, chopping and experimenting with anything.

 

POINT 3 ..... The best place that this type of thing could have happened was in Israel with the whole Kibbutz way of living where everybody shared everything and that "Social experiment" failed ... go check the facts.

 

POINT 4 .... "The only time that this type of "lifestyle" would work was if it was ENFORCED onto people as the natural tendency for people is to improve their current condition and be free ... "this is what I'm talking about", you might say ... Sorry, but the people who've tried this before had a limited amount of success and then the wheels fell off ... any continuation of this failure was through force ... communist and marxist ideological theory fails in that it cannot control the human urge for freedom, and this experiment is restrictive.

 

POINT 5 ..... "What is more greedy. Someone that works for and expects the fruits of their labor or someone who wants to take more from them, because they have more to take. This idea of giving back is something the government should be doing, since they've demonstrated, over and over that they can't be responsible with the money we give them, now" .... By saying "what is more greedy", you imply and inject the thought that even though the people who take my money are greedy I still retain a certain element of greed ... ??????, how so I've worked for it ...

Btw, you will always have poor people, because some have absolutely no clue how to handle money ... in a simple experiment you may give 100 people each a million dollars, it's guaranteed that by soundown some will have either lost it all through stupidity and others though waste ... who's fault is that ?

Most people would not be in the financial crisis they're in if they put an effort into their own education just to start with, others need to get plastic surgery and cut that card in their bag or wallet into pieces, others need to just learn how to say "NO", the list is endless.

 

POINT 6 .... "This idea of giving back is something the government should be doing ...", give back what and how much and to whom and through what method and when ? ... all I see here is problems.

 

POINT 7 .... "Is this true Socialism or is it just a grab for power ..." Is what "true socialism" ?, and no one has made a grab for power, they were put there through your vote, so if you don't like the "rulers" you have then do as the Irish do, and vote for the opposition.

 

Quite honestly, I don't see anything "America specific" here, you could do this anywhere.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Nintii

[Marxist ßastard]

POINT 2 .... "They would have full sway to experiment and to evaluate every faset of science and knowledge ..." There have been a couple of people who've tried that ... Hitler's doctors experimenting on people and even cutting them open without giving them anasthetics ... no thank you, we honetsly don't need a bunch of "out of control" people running around cutting, chopping and experimenting with anything.

Oh, and another point: Science cannot exist without ethics. For science to work, scientists to be truthful in publications. And scientists cannot be trusted to do this when they make ethical concessions in other areas. It's like the “fruit of the poisonous tree” doctrine in law: If a police officer is willing to break into someone's house to collect evidence, couldn't that same officer be willing to fabricate the evidence in the first place?

[Unholypaladin]

The problem with full socialism is that socialism begins to fail when large amounts of people are involved. On a big scale socialist ideals become lost in the human machine, the constant masses of people who like to be better than anyone, to gain more than their share, and step over "faceless drones" to get there. Once a population hits a certain point the sense of community is lost. Socialism is for a small town, for a larger mass you need a completely different system. The problem comes in when you see what is really happening, the right wing think in terms of a dying way, and its dying for a good reason. The world has changed but they refuse to change with it. The left wing parties fail because they are irrational. There ideas although pleasing to the ear would never come to pass in a large society. What this world needs is a political overhaul, in this multicultural society laws based on religious or ethnic morals are foolish.

 

America is dead, its government obsolete, a remnant of the 20th century. What succeeds it will make all the difference, will it be succeeded by a utopia lead into thee future by visionaries of the new world, or will it become a corpse, a festering fallen empire that is a twisted mockery caused by people unable to let go, refusing to change with the times. The world has turned to science. China will not be able to succeed the world, as most people think. There is too much resistance, communism only works if the people conform which would fail due to years of American propaganda. America is falling, its reign lasting a hundred years, but people believed themselves invincible, and became careless, so sure that America would live on forever.

 

America has only been a significant world power since world war one, before world war one America was less powerful than the European empires. eventually

[kvnchrist]

I would like to purchase a plot of land to create a moderately self sustaining commune, and fill it with artists, scientists and inventors to create a world devoid of the restrictions of religion and politics. They would have full sway to experiment and to evaluate every faset of science and knowledge. There would be an artist colony, as well for every form of self expression and teachers and tutors for every artform.

I honestly can't decide whether to tell you that this is a verbatim copy of the plot of Bioshock, give you a price quote on a one-way trip to Somalia, or encourage you to post “world's top artists, scientists, and engineers wanted for organic-farming/bell-making commune in 0.2 acre backyard; PARASITES NEED NOT APPLY” on Craigslist. Literally, I just do not know where to start.

 

So your idea is technically untrollable. Congratulations?

I have been thinking about this since I first saw the movie Billy Jack. It has nothing to do with any game. I couldn't care less where you want to strat. I do know where this ends. It ends with you being placed on my ignore list. You are hardly worth me getting banned from here, by responding to your silliness.

[Nintii]

@ Unholypaladin ... nothing personal ... you post it, I have the right to repudiate it ... you may do likewise ... I sincerely apologise if i offend you ... this is a scatter shot and not at you ... I must point out that i do agree with you on some points but will only challenge the ones I don't agree with or feel interested in commenting on.

 

On a big scale socialist ideals become lost in the human machine, the constant masses of people who like to be better than anyone, to gain more than their share, and step over "faceless drones" to get there. Once a population hits a certain point the sense of community is lost. Socialism is for a small town, for a larger mass you need a completely different system. The problem comes in when you see what is really happening, the right wing think in terms of a dying way, and its dying for a good reason. The world has changed but they refuse to change with it. The left wing parties fail because they are irrational. There ideas although pleasing to the ear would never come to pass in a large society. What this world needs is a political overhaul, in this multicultural society laws based on religious or ethnic morals are foolish.

 

America is dead, its government obsolete, a remnant of the 20th century. What succeeds it will make all the difference, will it be succeeded by a utopia lead into thee future by visionaries of the new world, or will it become a corpse, a festering fallen empire that is a twisted mockery caused by people unable to let go, refusing to change with the times. The world has turned to science. China will not be able to succeed the world, as most people think. There is too much resistance, communism only works if the people conform which would fail due to years of American propaganda. America is falling, its reign lasting a hundred years, but people believed themselves invincible, and became careless, so sure that America would live on forever.

 

America has only been a significant world power since world war one, before world war one America was less powerful than the European empires. eventually

 

No ... sorry !

 

Point 1) "The constant masses of people who like to be better than anyone..." ... Oh please ... If improving my life through hard work to better my lot in life and pass on a legacy to my offspring is considered as "trying to be better than anyone" then I embrace that accusation wholeheartedly ... normally you'd find the "masses" thinking that way because they've never bothered to lift themselves out of the mire and it's oh so much easier to point the finger at the diligent and hate them because they actually do something to improve their lives ... it's so much easier than focusing on our laziness - because that's what it really is - right ?

 

One of the magical tricks that Socialism likes to perform is to grant the illusion that by banding together "we can make it work", by taking those rich buggers money and then through wonderful government program funding ... RED FLAG = Socialism ... we can make a new better life for all ... rubbish ... it has never worked anywhere ... anywhere ... anywhere.

 

Point 2) "... to gain more than their share ..." .... Share of what ? ... who said you get equal parts ? show me ? and "their share of what" money perhaps is that it ? ... listen it's only yours when you work for it, otherwisw you don't get it ... or perhaps you could go to "the place" where you can pick "up your share".

I know a lot of people who are currently looking for that magical office, and have been doing so all their lazy lives and still haven't found it, oh wait that's because it doesn't exist ... THERE IS NO SHARE, YOU HAVE TO MAKE YOUR SHARE.

 

Point 3) "... step over the faceless drones ..." ... huh, you mean the guys who never tried, I mean really tried to improve their lot ... c'mon you (everyone) know that if you studied a bit harder or changed something in your life you'd be in a better financial position than what you're in right now ... and now that life somehow seems to be passing you by and you still where you used to be ... and it makes you angry ... so let's just moan about "those evil capitalist pigs, those slavering hell hounds of big business" ... (the ones who "did" try).

 

Hey I'm sure you've heard of the guy who invented the light bulb right ?... Thomas Edison ... he tried hundreds of times and failed until oneday he finally succeeded ... have YOU tried HUNDREDS of times ? .... No ... so what if someone does and succeeds and makes money because they refused to give up ... do you hate that person ? ... Hello, anyone home, hello ?

 

Failure is not having tried and missed it, no, failure is to give up trying ... are we having fun yet ?

 

Point 4) ... "What this world needs is a political overhaul, in this multicultural society laws based on religious or ethnic morals are foolish" ... We are not ONE, each nation is unique, and has a right to express it's uniqueness in it's laws or through it's beliefs ... what you're asking for is a "new Babel" ... it like communism will never work without enforcement ... which means prison, torture, coercion, domination etc., the very thing that crushes the human spirit and turns us all into the very drones you spoke of ... only this time an elite will rule in the place of the corporations or business ... and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

Point 5) ... "America is dead, its government obsolete, a remnant of the 20th century. What succeeds it will make all the difference, will it be succeeded by a utopia lead into thee future by visionaries of the new world, or will it become a corpse, a festering fallen empire that is a twisted mockery caused by people unable to let go, refusing to change with the times"

 

That sounds so poetic ... I like poetry btw, it's so pretty ... but it's wrong, America is not dead, not by a long shot ... America is at a crossroads that's all, and a few decisions have to be made about your national debt ... let's be honest here for a moment, if the debt crisis did not exist, then evrything would pretty much be ok ... sure America will have issues, everyone does but that doesn't mean it's the end ... don't lose hope.

 

Point 6) ... America has only been a significant world power since world war one, before world war one America was less powerful than the European empires" ... the future of the world will ultimately end up in "blocks" and America will be one of them and so will Europe but that in no way diminishes America as an entity or power.

Edited November 3, 2011 by Nintii