marharth Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 Can this get locked? Requesting as OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperistan Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) This argument is silly because it presumes that people are hopeless without Big Brother government there to hold their hands. Spontaneous order does happen, and much of the infrastructure required to sustain society will be built and maintained by this. Whether or not its "modern" is irrelevant, because modernity is just a meaningless buzzword concept that presumes progress has occurred where it actually hasn't.When I quit laughing I must ask you to cite examples of spontaneous enduring civil order among more than 1000 people, keep in mind that you can't use any hierarchical structures to cite as examples since that isn't spontaneous. You may take up your quill any time you like since one of us isn't in this century. Okay. Let me go ahead and quote you pretty much the entire history of mankind. No, the universe itself I think...Well since we can rule out the universe as not being an association of people but rather a cosmological concept, that leaves us with entire history of man..so pick your examples since you have such a plethora of them (same preconditions). Okay. Ur. Baghdad Constantinople Greece Rome Paris And sometime between all those, the Native American peoples. A more modern example is the Old West, where order relied heavily on spontaneity due to the utter lack of the national governments presence. An even more modern example is the internet, particularly in its earlier days. Then you have relatively "micro" interactions like turnabouts that also serve as examples. It should also be noted that the other concept of order, planned order you might call it, is largely existent because it had the luxury of being able to be formed when order already existed via spontaneity. Ancient cities and countries were already established centers of order well before they began to spread order, rather than letting it be created on its own. And why would you want this to be locked? There's no reason for that. Edited February 17, 2012 by imperistan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurielius Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) <snip> Ur.-Absolute MonarchBaghdad-Absolute MonarchConstantinople-Absolute MonarchGreece-Oligarchy and sometime DemocraciesRome-Senate and Emperor'sParis-Committee of Public Safety, Emperor, Monarch And sometime between all those, the Native American peoples. A more modern example is the Old West, where order relied heavily on spontaneity due to the utter lack of the national governments presence. An even more modern example is the internet, particularly in its earlier days. Then you have relatively "micro" interactions like turnabouts that also serve as examples. Evidently you must have missed the concept of chief's within all tribes. It should also be noted that the other concept of order, planned order you might call it, is largely existent because it had the luxury of being able to be formed when order already existed via spontaneity. Ancient cities and countries were already established centers of order well before they began to spread order, rather than letting it be created on its own. All the city states you have used are hierarchical hence not spontaneously self ordered. If you think the Internet is self ordered and not hierarchical please inform the moderators that they don't exist or exert power. Edited February 17, 2012 by Aurielius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperistan Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 <snip> Ur.-Absolute MonarchBaghdad-Absolute MonarchConstantinople-Absolute MonarchGreece-Oligarchy and sometime DemocraciesRome-Senate and Emperor'sParis-Committee of Public Safety, Emperor, Monarch And sometime between all those, the Native American peoples. A more modern example is the Old West, where order relied heavily on spontaneity due to the utter lack of the national governments presence. An even more modern example is the internet, particularly in its earlier days. Then you have relatively "micro" interactions like turnabouts that also serve as examples. Evidently you must have missed the concept of chief's within all tribes. It should also be noted that the other concept of order, planned order you might call it, is largely existent because it had the luxury of being able to be formed when order already existed via spontaneity. Ancient cities and countries were already established centers of order well before they began to spread order, rather than letting it be created on its own. All the city states you have used are hierarchical hence not spontaneously self ordered. If you think the Internet is self ordered and not hierarchical please inform the moderators that they don't exist or exert power. You don't really understand how spontaneous order works do you? Spontaneous order does not mean that hierarchies cannot form out of it (only that spontaneous order cannot form out of an established hierarchical organization), and the internet in its early days was largely spontaneous in its order. It was from that that systems like moderation spawned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grannywils Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 @Imperistan, I have noticed a number of instances where when someone has disagreed with your position you have found it necessary to advise them that they didn't understand. I was wondering if it had occurred to you that perhaps they understood just fine but just simply had a different point of view. Having read the above posts, it sounded to me as if your positions were understood, but not necessarily accepted. Just wondering.... Oh, and by the way, my husband was around and involved during the very beginning days of the internet. He advises me that it was absolute chaos. There was no order whatsoever, spontaneous or otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperistan Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I have noticed a number of instances where when someone has disagreed with your position you have found it necessary to advise them that they didn't understand. I was wondering if it had occurred to you that perhaps they understood just fine but just simply had a different point of view. Having read the above posts, it sounded to me as if your positions were understood, but not necessarily accepted. Just wondering.... Perhaps, perhaps not. If I pick up on what I think is a misunderstanding then I'll roll with it. If I'm wrong, then so be it. Either way, I clarify and we all move forward. Oh, and by the way, my husband was around and involved during the very beginning days of the internet. He advises me that it was absolute chaos. There was no order whatsoever, spontaneous or otherwise. Well, I wasn't referring to that early. And besides, there's always chaos before order. And its always the middle ground between those two that you see spontaneous order and then eventually hierarchical order out of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisnpuppy Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Locking per OP request. ~Lisnpuppy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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