ideas to protect your mods? fallout 4

[theMetamancer]

The veteran MA's are free to correct me, but one of the chief reasons that paid modding was rescinded was because of the firestorm that arose from the modding community not only when formerly free mods were being put behind a paywall, but many of the paid mods had content in them with questionable ownership issues (due to various reasons). And I am certain Valve and Beth were also concerned with the possibility that even some of the paid mods might end up being outright pirated as well, and thereby being liable to the mod authors for failing to secure their mod store properly. It's a very thorny, complicated subject that none of the decision makers seemed to have paid any attention to going in. And it's not as if other industries hadn't handled such matters themselves already and worked out workable solutions (see e-Publishing, app stores and the like,). My beef is that with console mods, as with the paid mod fiasco, Beth not only tried to re-invent the wheel, it was still just a half-arsed effort. The "wheel" in this case had just had a hub and spokes, but no rim, making for a helluva' bumpy ride.

[CiderMuffin]

 

Just owning a console doesn't mean you're an idiot. There are guides on how to use scripting everywhere and again, if it took DDP only 25 minutes to learn it and apparently that's all it takes for everyone else clearly it's so easy to get rid of it.

 

Like holy crap, take your arrogance somewhere else. console users, not "peasants", aren't all idiots just like all PC owners aren't all coding masters. There is also the fact that this whole ordeal isn't going to be a long term problem and it's more likely mod piracy is going to go back to being sites that only PC users can use.

Well that's quite interesting, i said thieving peasants and yet i sense butthurt.

Sure not all are thieves, not all are idiots, but i thought drm is to stop thieves not all console users. And as far as i see all thieves and those who defend them are morons.

 

 

 

Yes, "thieving peasants" will have the ability and intelligence to reverse engineer mods. Not the majority of console users will have the technical expertise, no, but some will. Just the same as in the wider world, most pirates don't have the ability to reverse engineer game binaries to strip out the DRM, but some do. If an anecdote helps: when I was attending university studying software engineering I didn't have money to upgrade my PC, so I ended up playing Fallout 3 on my XBox 360. But if Fallout 3 had this Bethesda.net thing happen and I decided to be entitled my PC was more than capable enough of running FO3Edit which is the majority of what I would need to strip out the DRM from a mod if I had the time and energy to do so. I'm not exceptional and you wouldn't even need a formal education to do so: a hobbyist with the time and energy could also do so just as well if not better than my lazy self.

 

I know you touch on this in your last line, but I'm blathering on for a reason: you would probably be surprised how many people on consoles would still be doing this. Even if this cut the numbers by 90%, the idea of taking legal action sounds nice on paper, but in reality I find it highly unlikely you'll actually see many (any) lawsuits over mods. The only solution I can see in the real world is Bethesda taking responsibility and actually properly curating Bethesda.net. Maybe it will take someone seriously trying to take legal action before Bethesda will do so, but it's not like people with a passion for modding are going to want to spend 50% of their time trying to hand out DMCA takedowns.

Those who crack games and apps do that for the challenge, i honestly doubt they will feel any challenge from breaking open source code. Rather it'd be insult to their pride.

Also warez scene and piracy scene as immature as it is doesn't like their s*** being thrown into public, sure it leaks but there were ton's of ddos attacks from warez scenes for uploading their stuff to various trackers. Even those who break consoles, unless they want to make money on it do extra length to avoid piracy in recent years.

 

As i've said it's unlikely to be the case for people who know how to crack to blatantly steal mods and upload them as their own. Most idiots like this will give up right after they have to play with construction kit or they'll release broken mods that'll cause loads of hate.

 

Pointing out you're wrong =/= butthurt

[ashtonx]

The veteran MA's are free to correct me, but one of the chief reasons that paid modding was rescinded was because of the firestorm that arose from the modding community not only when formerly free mods were being put behind a paywall, but many of the paid mods had content in them with questionable ownership issues (due to various reasons). And I am certain Valve and Beth were also concerned with the possibility that even some of the paid mods might end up being outright pirated as well, and thereby being liable to the mod authors for failing to secure their mod store properly. It's a very thorny, complicated subject that none of the decision makers seemed to have paid any attention to going in. And it's not as if other industries hadn't handled such matters themselves already and worked out workable solutions (see e-Publishing, app stores and the like,). My beef is that with console mods, as with the paid mod fiasco, Beth not only tried to re-invent the wheel, it was still just a half-arsed effort. The "wheel" in this case had just had a rim and spokes, but no rim, making for a helluva' bumpy ride.

A lot of the outrage was imo because there were a lot of dependencies between mods suddenly some mods were going after paywall or disappearing it caused a lot of mess, there are other games that actually have paid mods and it works. if bethesda started a game with such an idea there'd prolly not be as much outrage, or rather it'd die down very quickly.

 

That said, looking at bethaids i can understand your concerns about legal issues. If they can't moderate even free mods at a certain level they shouldn't think about making money on the platform.

 

 

Pointing out you're wrong =/= butthurt

 

Before you point out something is wrong, you might try to comprehend what is said instead of jumping into conclusions.

Edited June 15, 2016 by ashtonx

[NorthWolf]

 

Those who crack games and apps do that for the challenge, i honestly doubt they will feel any challenge from breaking open source code. Rather it'd be insult to their pride.

Also warez scene and piracy scene as immature as it is doesn't like their s*** being thrown into public, sure it leaks but there were ton's of ddos attacks from warez scenes for uploading their stuff to various trackers. Even those who break consoles, unless they want to make money on it do extra length to avoid piracy in recent years.

 

As i've said it's unlikely to be the case for people who know how to crack to blatantly steal mods and upload them as their own. Most idiots like this will give up right after they have to play with construction kit or they'll release broken mods that'll cause loads of hate.

 

 

You're comparing two things that only have minor similarities. Reverse engineering a compiled binary requires genuine technical expertise because you're dealing with assembly code. These are often binaries that have a DRM solution provided by a professional company that focuses entirely on developing DRM solutions. On the other hand? Reverse engineering a mod requires a few hours on some tutorials and FO4Edit, at most maybe something to decompile Papyrus files. At most the mod (theoretically) might use a custom DRM solution or one provided by the modding community.

 

So being able to do "mod cracking" doesn't require you have extensive technical expertise that would take years to learn, it just requires a few hours and enough motivation for even a non-technical user to gain the skills needed. By the very virtue of the medium most mods will be significantly easier to crack. The only mods that will even get close to being difficult to crack are ones that are mostly entirely dependent on a custom F4SE plugin.

 

TL;DR: Comparing reverse engineering compiled binaries with baked in professional DRM to reverse engineering mods that are in a largely easy-to-modify format with some DRM tacked on isn't really sensible. They're similar in concept and nothing alike in execution.

 

Get it? It's a pun.

[CiderMuffin]

 

The veteran MA's are free to correct me, but one of the chief reasons that paid modding was rescinded was because of the firestorm that arose from the modding community not only when formerly free mods were being put behind a paywall, but many of the paid mods had content in them with questionable ownership issues (due to various reasons). And I am certain Valve and Beth were also concerned with the possibility that even some of the paid mods might end up being outright pirated as well, and thereby being liable to the mod authors for failing to secure their mod store properly. It's a very thorny, complicated subject that none of the decision makers seemed to have paid any attention to going in. And it's not as if other industries hadn't handled such matters themselves already and worked out workable solutions (see e-Publishing, app stores and the like,). My beef is that with console mods, as with the paid mod fiasco, Beth not only tried to re-invent the wheel, it was still just a half-arsed effort. The "wheel" in this case had just had a rim and spokes, but no rim, making for a helluva' bumpy ride.

A lot of the outrage was imo because there were a lot of dependencies between mods suddenly some mods were going after paywall or disappearing it caused a lot of mess, there are other games that actually have paid mods and it works. if bethesda started a game with such an idea there'd prolly not be as much outrage, or rather it'd die down very quickly.

 

That said, looking at bethaids i can understand your concerns about legal issues. If they can't moderate even free mods at a certain level they shouldn't think about making money on the platform.

 

 

Pointing out you're wrong =/= butthurt

Before you point out something is wrong, you might try to comprehend what is said instead of jumping into conclusions.

 

Nah, I read your post fine and it's pretty obvious what you meant.

[theMetamancer]

You're comparing two things that only have minor similarities. Reverse engineering a compiled binary requires genuine technical expertise because you're dealing with assembly code. These are often binaries that have a DRM solution provided by a professional company that focuses entirely on developing DRM solutions. On the other hand? Reverse engineering a mod requires a few hours on some tutorials and FO4Edit, at most maybe something to decompile Papyrus files. At most the mod (theoretically) might use a custom DRM solution or one provided by the modding community.

 

So being able to do "mod cracking" doesn't require you have extensive technical expertise that would take years to learn, it just requires a few hours and enough motivation for even a non-technical user to gain the skills needed. By the very virtue of the medium most mods will be significantly easier to crack. The only mods that will even get close to being difficult to crack are ones that are mostly entirely dependent on a custom F4SE plugin.

 

TL;DR: Comparing reverse engineering compiled binaries with baked in professional DRM to reverse engineering mods that are in a largely easy-to-modify format with some DRM tacked on isn't really sensible. They're similar in concept and nothing alike in execution.

 

Get it? It's a pun.

I'm not going to argue with the wide variance between skill sets, as I agree with your point. But I would argue that the vast majority of those who are currently doing the mod stealing do not even have the capability or the wherewithal or the patience for even the simpler DRM cracking you have described. And for most that do, some will decide it's not worth the effort.

The bottom line is that pirating FO4 mods has been made far, far too easy right now. The barriers to entry are far too minimal, and the potential consequences are... inconsequential. For one, the CK, for all its warts, makes ripping another's work all too easy. And with nary the effort put into curating the resulting content, it's no wonder pirating is so rampant. Even a weak, easily breakable DRM would thwart 90% of them. But Beth doesn't even tie the upload account to a verifiable real world identity, and doesn't even bother with IP tracking either, thereby allowing the miscreants full anonymity and no means to perma-ban them. I am just flummoxed by how they could have not taken two seconds to consider any of this prior to opening the flood gates.

[bben46]

Hey people - It is NOT the console players that are pirating mods. It actually requires a PC that can run the CK in order to pirate a mod. It is your own PC master race faction that is stealing not the console players. The typical console player does not even know about this mess. They see that Bethsoft has FO4 mods for Xbox now and download. Most have no clue that some of those mods are even stolen. After all they downloaded from Bethnet, and Beth is a reputable company aren't they? They wouldn't allow pirated mods or mods that they haven't even tested to be sure they work on their site would they? Please don't get upset with console players. Save your butt hurt 12 year old attitude for the real pirates - the PC people who knew where to go and what mods to take. If you think, very few console players even know about Nexus. Why should they come here? The PC mods here won't work on a console without first being ported to Bethnet. And you can blame Beth for failing completely to do the first thing to secure their Bethnet site from malware, pirates uploading stolen content and butt hurt Mod authors hell bent on revenge against anybody and everybody whether they were involved in the problem or not.

 

For years you have ranted against DRM, and now at the first hint that YOUR precious mod might be pirated you demand DRM? How ironic is that? :rolleyes:

DRM is not the solution. Educating Bethesda on how to run a mod site may be the solution. For some reason they seem to have ASSUMED that mods will only be accessed and uploaded during their 9 to 5 and Monday through Friday working time. And that no one would be smart enough to wait until they go home for the day to upload a mod they know is in violation of the rules set by Bethsoft for their mod site. And they ASSUMED that not much money needed to be budgeted for moderating their site because the few moderators they already had on their forums could take care of moderating the mods in their spare time.

[CiderMuffin]

Hey people - It is NOT the console players that are pirating mods. It actually requires a PC that can run the CK in order to pirate a mod. It is your own PC master race faction that is stealing not the console players. The typical console player does not even know about this mess. They see that Bethsoft has FO4 mods for Xbox now and download. Most have no clue that some of those mods are even stolen. After all they downloaded from Bethnet, and Beth is a reputable company aren't they? They wouldn't allow pirated mods or mods that they haven't even tested to be sure they work on their site would they? Please don't get upset with console players. Save your butt hurt 12 year old attitude for the real pirates - the PC people who knew where to go and what mods to take. If you think, very few console players even know about Nexus. Why should they come here? The PC mods here won't work on a console without first being ported to Bethnet. And you can blame Beth for failing completely to do the first thing to secure their Bethnet site from malware, pirates uploading stolen content and butt hurt Mod authors hell bent on revenge against anybody and everybody whether they were involved in the problem or not.

 

For years you have ranted against DRM, and now at the first hint that YOUR precious mod might be pirated you demand DRM? How ironic is that? :rolleyes:

DRM is not the solution. Educating Bethesda on how to run a mod site may be the solution. For some reason they seem to have ASSUMED that mods will only be accessed and uploaded during their 9 to 5 and Monday through Friday working time. And that no one would be smart enough to wait until they go home for the day to upload a mod they know is in violation of the rules set by Bethsoft for their mod site. And they ASSUMED that not much money needed to be budgeted for moderating their site because the few moderators they already had on their forums could take care of moderating the mods in their spare time.

This. and it'll become more obvious now since you need to own a legal, steam verified copy of Fallout 4 in order to upload mods.

 

https://community.bethesda.net/thread/32339

[checkett]

Is there any communication between those in charge of Nexus and the appropriate people at Bethesda? I remember they had some communication during the whole paid mods debacle.

[NorthWolf]

I'm not going to argue with the wide variance between skill sets, as I agree with your point. But I would argue that the vast majority of those who are currently doing the mod stealing do not even have the capability or the wherewithal or the patience for even the simpler DRM cracking you have described. And for most that do, some will decide it's not worth the effort.

The bottom line is that pirating FO4 mods has been made far, far too easy right now. The barriers to entry are far too minimal, and the potential consequences are... inconsequential. For one, the CK, for all its warts, makes ripping another's work all too easy. And with nary the effort put into curating the resulting content, it's no wonder pirating is so rampant. Even a weak, easily breakable DRM would thwart 90% of them. But Beth doesn't even tie the upload account to a verifiable real world identity, and doesn't even bother with IP tracking either, thereby allowing the miscreants full anonymity and no means to perma-ban them. I am just flummoxed by how they could have not taken two seconds to consider any of this prior to opening the flood gates.

 

I don't actually disagree that it will reduce the volume of mod theft significantly. I just don't think it will get as close to solving the problem as you may think. I don't doubt that if modders start sticking "mod DRM" into their stuff it'll cut down numbers significantly, but it doesn't take a wide community to do this sort of thing. It takes a handful of people willing to keep doing it ad nauseam. Since I've kept my personal opinions to a minimum and seem to be coming across as supporting both sides, I guess the next post is appropriate...

 

Hey people - It is NOT the console players that are pirating mods. It actually requires a PC that can run the CK in order to pirate a mod. It is your own PC master race faction that is stealing not the console players. The typical console player does not even know about this mess. They see that Bethsoft has FO4 mods for Xbox now and download. Most have no clue that some of those mods are even stolen. After all they downloaded from Bethnet, and Beth is a reputable company aren't they? They wouldn't allow pirated mods or mods that they haven't even tested to be sure they work on their site would they? Please don't get upset with console players. Save your butt hurt 12 year old attitude for the real pirates - the PC people who knew where to go and what mods to take. If you think, very few console players even know about Nexus. Why should they come here? The PC mods here won't work on a console without first being ported to Bethnet. And you can blame Beth for failing completely to do the first thing to secure their Bethnet site from malware, pirates uploading stolen content and butt hurt Mod authors hell bent on revenge against anybody and everybody whether they were involved in the problem or not.

 

For years you have ranted against DRM, and now at the first hint that YOUR precious mod might be pirated you demand DRM? How ironic is that? :rolleyes:

DRM is not the solution. Educating Bethesda on how to run a mod site may be the solution. For some reason they seem to have ASSUMED that mods will only be accessed and uploaded during their 9 to 5 and Monday through Friday working time. And that no one would be smart enough to wait until they go home for the day to upload a mod they know is in violation of the rules set by Bethsoft for their mod site. And they ASSUMED that not much money needed to be budgeted for moderating their site because the few moderators they already had on their forums could take care of moderating the mods in their spare time.

 

This is close to my personal opinion. The real problem is that Bethesda is the developer of Fallout 4 and as a result they owe it to the community to have been more responsible with their launch of Bethesda.net. Since one popular talking point is legalities, I'll clarify: they don't legally owe it to us, no, but if they only ever pay attention to their legal obligations they'll quickly end up with a disillusioned and greatly diminished consumer base. It's not an unreasonable expectation that a reputable company like Bethesda would run a reputable website, and if there's one thing about this whole fiasco that upsets me it's this:

 

Console mods are a good thing for the modding PC gaming community because it means the chances of developers and publishers supporting mods is greatly increased. The chances of getting a bad PC port are diminished because suddenly PCs and PC gamers are the ones generating new content that helps sell their game on consoles, and thus alienating the PC community becomes unproductive (even moreso). Let's be honest: there is a smaller market for PC titles, but suddenly PC titles become valuable and even give console players an incentive to get a nice PC that can run their favorite moddable game so they can make mods. The advantage for consoles is equally obvious: suddenly you have content that can keep a single game interesting for years. It was (and still is) something that could really make things better for both sides of the community and even the developers/publishers, but...

 

Bethesda decided to be the first company to leap, which is great, but they decided to do so with their eyes shut. Bethesda has been dealing with the modding community for nearly two decades now (maybe longer?) and were fully equipped to add features to their site to prevent this. Not just fully equipped, but entirely capable of being aware of the pitfalls they could run into. Making a reporting system is disgustingly easy from the standpoint of web development and getting an active moderation staff could not possibly have been that financially straining to Bethesda compared to the possible advantages. Instead what we got was a giant mess that's needlessly stirred up a sentiment of "PC vs. console, come at me bro" when in reality mod theft has been pandemic for a very long time. It's also inspired people to genuinely feel the need to have these DRM systems -- I do totally understand why they're upset -- that won't really help make mods better (and will probably make them worse if commercial DRM is any metric).

 

And that's the problem: instead of this being a really cool thing all around, Bethesda's lack of foresight has made it a huge debate with a lot of dissent towards the idea. Instead of its introduction showing us all of the cool benefits it could have on both ends, it's just showing us all of the disadvantages and few if any of the advantages.

 

 

This. and it'll become more obvious now since you need to own a legal, steam verified copy of Fallout 4 in order to upload mods.

https://community.bethesda.net/thread/32339

 

 

At least this, to me, seems like a step forward for taking responsibility.

 

Edit: Do the forums really hate when you copy+paste quotes or am I just going crazy?

Edited June 15, 2016 by NorthWolf