The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[SubjectProphet]

Stormcloaks are the correct side. The Empire would be, but the Thalmor control them. If the Imperials control Skyrim, the Thalmor would. The Nords don't want that. You have to kick the Imperials out, and Ulfric would do the rest against the Thalmor.

 

Those who think about the treaty signed by the Thalmor and Empire was supposed to be peace, wrong. The treaty was designated toward as follows:

 

The Aldmeri Dominion stops the war against the Empire, as long as the Empire hands EVERYTHING over to the Dominion. Cyrodil is controled by the Altmer, not by the Imperials. Skyrim would be too, but the stormcloaks would stop that.

Edited January 18, 2012 by SubjectProphet

[Zykerion]

Stormcloaks are the correct side. The Empire would be, but the Thalmor control them. If the Imperials control Skyrim, the Thalmor would. The Nords don't want that. You have to kick the Imperials out, and Ulfric would do the rest against the Thalmor.

 

Those who think about the treaty signed by the Thalmor and Empire was supposed to be peace, wrong. The treaty was designated toward as follows:

 

The Aldmeri Dominion stops the war against the Empire, as long as the Empire hands EVERYTHING over to the Dominion. Cyrodil is controled by the Altmer, not by the Imperials. Skyrim would be too, but the stormcloaks would stop that.

 

The terms of the White-Gold Concordat are not exactly known at this time. However, I would imagine that given both sides suffered heavy losses after the Great War, I doubt the Dominion has the military might to maintain an occupation force within Cyrodiil. It's simply not logistically feasible for them right now. In much the same way that the Empire has a hard time maintaining order within Skyrim. Both sides are substantially weakened and can't put down the authority they need to.

 

A reminder: technically the Aldmeri Dominion LOST the war. The Empire only quit because they lacked the resources for a protracted and bloody offensive. So they offered the olive branch of peace. Cyrodiil and its Empire is not a puppet force of the Dominion.

[psychohampster]

My reason for supporting the Empire is simple.

Ulfric sounds like a pompous whiny windbag.

[Tidus44]

I played through both sides just to see how each turned out - I am just happy I can kill the Thalmor everytime I see one regardless of the side I was on.

 

What upsets me is how Elisif is treated at the end regardless of which side is chosen.

[SubjectProphet]

Stormcloaks are the correct side. The Empire would be, but the Thalmor control them. If the Imperials control Skyrim, the Thalmor would. The Nords don't want that. You have to kick the Imperials out, and Ulfric would do the rest against the Thalmor.

 

Those who think about the treaty signed by the Thalmor and Empire was supposed to be peace, wrong. The treaty was designated toward as follows:

 

The Aldmeri Dominion stops the war against the Empire, as long as the Empire hands EVERYTHING over to the Dominion. Cyrodil is controled by the Altmer, not by the Imperials. Skyrim would be too, but the stormcloaks would stop that.

 

The terms of the White-Gold Concordat are not exactly known at this time. However, I would imagine that given both sides suffered heavy losses after the Great War, I doubt the Dominion has the military might to maintain an occupation force within Cyrodiil. It's simply not logistically feasible for them right now. In much the same way that the Empire has a hard time maintaining order within Skyrim. Both sides are substantially weakened and can't put down the authority they need to.

 

A reminder: technically the Aldmeri Dominion LOST the war. The Empire only quit because they lacked the resources for a protracted and bloody offensive. So they offered the olive branch of peace. Cyrodiil and its Empire is not a puppet force of the Dominion.

 

The lore of Tamriel lists that The Empire fell to the Dominion, and the Empire lost, therefore you are wrong. The Altmer tell the Emporer what to do, and he either does that or he gets beheaded in front of his dieing empire.

[Zykerion]

 

The lore of Tamriel lists that The Empire fell to the Dominion, and the Empire lost, therefore you are wrong. The Altmer tell the Emporer what to do, and he either does that or he gets beheaded in front of his dieing empire.

 

 

http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:White-Gold_Concordat

 

The Empire won, but were forced to sign a peace treaty to give the Legion time to recover. The Thalmor also have no authority in the Empire beyond their Talos inquisition in Skyrim.

[SubjectProphet]

 

The lore of Tamriel lists that The Empire fell to the Dominion, and the Empire lost, therefore you are wrong. The Altmer tell the Emporer what to do, and he either does that or he gets beheaded in front of his dieing empire.

 

 

http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:White-Gold_Concordat

 

The Empire won, but were forced to sign a peace treaty to give the Legion time to recover. The Thalmor also have no authority in the Empire beyond their Talos inquisition in Skyrim.

 

The Empire handed themselves over to the Empire with this treaty. UESP isn't much of a trusted site for lore off of Tamriel. Backup you're claim with another site. I mean, it's a good wiki for items, but not lore friendly.

 

Within Skyrim, it is clear that anyone who serves the Empire is a slave to the Thalmor. They control you, and either you abide by it or die. That's their claim. The Thalmor also have claim throughtout all of Cyrodil, mainly throughout the Imperial Palace.

 

Based off of the in-game lore, the Empire lost, terribly too. A "victory" doesn't stand when a side is forced to give in when the enemy is on their own turf, killing their people and burning the cities. The Dominion was all throughout Cyrodil when this was signed, owning Anvil, Kvatch, and Skingrad. Chorrol was also under threat of invasion. The empire didn't win if they signed the treaty whilist the Thalmor were knocking on the Imperial Palace's doors, ready to kill everyone inside. The treaty only stands for the Empire to rebuild, but it isn't happening. Soon, the Thalmor and the Dominion will move right back into Cyrodil. Many provinces (Skyrim, Morrowind, and Black Marsh) are no longer abiding by the treaty and starting to hate the Empire.

 

Do you call that a victory?

[Zykerion]

 

The Empire handed themselves over to the Empire with this treaty. UESP isn't much of a trusted site for lore off of Tamriel. Backup you're claim with another site. I mean, it's a good wiki for items, but not lore friendly.

 

Within Skyrim, it is clear that anyone who serves the Empire is a slave to the Thalmor. They control you, and either you abide by it or die. That's their claim. The Thalmor also have claim throughtout all of Cyrodil, mainly throughout the Imperial Palace.

 

Based off of the in-game lore, the Empire lost, terribly too. A "victory" doesn't stand when a side is forced to give in when the enemy is on their own turf, killing their people and burning the cities. The Dominion was all throughout Cyrodil when this was signed, owning Anvil, Kvatch, and Skingrad. Chorrol was also under threat of invasion. The empire didn't win if they signed the treaty whilist the Thalmor were knocking on the Imperial Palace's doors, ready to kill everyone inside. The treaty only stands for the Empire to rebuild, but it isn't happening. Soon, the Thalmor and the Dominion will move right back into Cyrodil. Many provinces (Skyrim, Morrowind, and Black Marsh) are no longer abiding by the treaty and starting to hate the Empire.

 

Do you call that a victory?

 

Considering the information regarding the treaty is pulled from an IN-GAME BOOK, I'd say it's pretty darn reliable. Not to mention UESP has quality standards, just like any other wiki, which includes that information must be confirmed by an in-game source. You'll be hard pressed to find a site that has information regarding any of this that isn't a wiki.

 

In any event, both sides were in essence annihilated by the end of the Great War. The Battle of the Red Ring is the battle where the Imperial forces launched a three-prong assault on the Imperial City and RETOOK IT. It's unclear whether ownership of Anvil, Kvatch, Skingrad, etc. was still in Thalmor hands at that point.

 

The tensions between Hammerfell and the Empire currently are a direct result of the fact that neither side was particularly ready to engage in the conflict for much longer. Hammerfell wanted the Empire to come get rid of the rest of the Thalmor residing in their lands. The Empire was forced to renounce them as a province to maintain the peace. Hammerfell thought that, should the Empire come to their aid, the Thalmor would no longer be a threat at all. And in fact, the forces within the province managed to get rid of the Thalmor permanently after five more years of bloody war.

 

It's also made VERY clear in-game from sources like General Tullius that the Thalmor are no friends of the Empire, and that they don't tell anyone in the Empire what to do.

 

As for the provinces you mention 'no longer abiding' by the treaty, let's look at them in-depth, shall we? Morrowind has never been very 'Imperial' in the first place, and the eruption of Vvardenfell has basically rendered the province uninhabitable. It's why the Dunmer have evacuated to other regions of the Empire. In essence, Morrowind is abandoned. Black Marsh seceded from the Empire shortly after the Oblivion Crisis, so, since they aren't part of the Empire, they don't need to abide by its laws or rules or its treaties with other powers. Skyrim is in a state of upheaval at the moment, the very topic of the debate. I sincerely doubt that the Empire condones the treatment of the people of Skyrim under the terms of the WGC. As further proof of the Empire and Skyrim's defiance of the Thalmor, you need look no further than Elisif, who has her own private shrine to Talos, and supports the Empire.

 

Going even further than those slices of evidence, the Thalmor Dossiers discovered within the Embassy during the game indicate heavily that they can influence sides, but they want neither to gain advantage over the other. Were the Empire merely puppets of the Thalmor, the Dominion could simply work out some sort of political alliance between the two (which currently DOES NOT EXIST) that has the Empire cede control of all of its lands to the Dominion.

[SubjectProphet]

 

The Empire handed themselves over to the Empire with this treaty. UESP isn't much of a trusted site for lore off of Tamriel. Backup you're claim with another site. I mean, it's a good wiki for items, but not lore friendly.

 

Within Skyrim, it is clear that anyone who serves the Empire is a slave to the Thalmor. They control you, and either you abide by it or die. That's their claim. The Thalmor also have claim throughtout all of Cyrodil, mainly throughout the Imperial Palace.

 

Based off of the in-game lore, the Empire lost, terribly too. A "victory" doesn't stand when a side is forced to give in when the enemy is on their own turf, killing their people and burning the cities. The Dominion was all throughout Cyrodil when this was signed, owning Anvil, Kvatch, and Skingrad. Chorrol was also under threat of invasion. The empire didn't win if they signed the treaty whilist the Thalmor were knocking on the Imperial Palace's doors, ready to kill everyone inside. The treaty only stands for the Empire to rebuild, but it isn't happening. Soon, the Thalmor and the Dominion will move right back into Cyrodil. Many provinces (Skyrim, Morrowind, and Black Marsh) are no longer abiding by the treaty and starting to hate the Empire.

 

Do you call that a victory?

 

Considering the information regarding the treaty is pulled from an IN-GAME BOOK, I'd say it's pretty darn reliable. Not to mention UESP has quality standards, just like any other wiki, which includes that information must be confirmed by an in-game source. You'll be hard pressed to find a site that has information regarding any of this that isn't a wiki.

 

In any event, both sides were in essence annihilated by the end of the Great War. The Battle of the Red Ring is the battle where the Imperial forces launched a three-prong assault on the Imperial City and RETOOK IT. It's unclear whether ownership of Anvil, Kvatch, Skingrad, etc. was still in Thalmor hands at that point.

 

The tensions between Hammerfell and the Empire currently are a direct result of the fact that neither side was particularly ready to engage in the conflict for much longer. Hammerfell wanted the Empire to come get rid of the rest of the Thalmor residing in their lands. The Empire was forced to renounce them as a province to maintain the peace. Hammerfell thought that, should the Empire come to their aid, the Thalmor would no longer be a threat at all. And in fact, the forces within the province managed to get rid of the Thalmor permanently after five more years of bloody war.

 

It's also made VERY clear in-game from sources like General Tullius that the Thalmor are no friends of the Empire, and that they don't tell anyone in the Empire what to do.

 

As for the provinces you mention 'no longer abiding' by the treaty, let's look at them in-depth, shall we? Morrowind has never been very 'Imperial' in the first place, and the eruption of Vvardenfell has basically rendered the province uninhabitable. It's why the Dunmer have evacuated to other regions of the Empire. In essence, Morrowind is abandoned. Black Marsh seceded from the Empire shortly after the Oblivion Crisis, so, since they aren't part of the Empire, they don't need to abide by its laws or rules or its treaties with other powers. Skyrim is in a state of upheaval at the moment, the very topic of the debate. I sincerely doubt that the Empire condones the treatment of the people of Skyrim under the terms of the WGC. As further proof of the Empire and Skyrim's defiance of the Thalmor, you need look no further than Elisif, who has her own private shrine to Talos, and supports the Empire.

 

Going even further than those slices of evidence, the Thalmor Dossiers discovered within the Embassy during the game indicate heavily that they can influence sides, but they want neither to gain advantage over the other. Were the Empire merely puppets of the Thalmor, the Dominion could simply work out some sort of political alliance between the two (which currently DOES NOT EXIST) that has the Empire cede control of all of its lands to the Dominion.

 

Another thing, about Hammerfell, let's see here..... hmmm....

 

It proves that the Empire is selfish. Hammerfell went so far they they killed they're own province in order to chase out the Thalmor. And Morrowind was actually united under the Empire, considering I PLAYED THE GAME. The province showed history in the game, proving that it was, in fact, sworn to the Empire and very close to the Emporer. In Oblivion, it was STILL united, and without anything else to support betrayal, no doubt that before the Great War, they were still united under the Empire. Black Marsh also was a main province of political debates with the Empire, though they never swore peace with Cyrodil. And considering the Empire never came to the help when the Dunmer enslaved the Argonians, it seems that the selfishness of them goes further.

 

Heading to you're last paragraph, the Altmer have never been known to care for politics, as when it comes to the tide of war, they insist of that. The Dominion COULD navigate something like that, but they NEVER would. They would instead kill off the Stormcloaks and punish the Empire for almost losing Skyrim.

 

And considering the Empire never exactly retook Kvatch and Anvil, they STILL wouldn't win, as the Thalmor were STILL in Cyrodil when the treaty was signed. It the Empire was so powerful during the war, then why did they never even TOUCH the Summerset Isles? And the book ingame was written from an Empire supporter's point of view, so as clearly as it should be, every statement in it can be argued.

 

Either way, this thread isn't for debating over the Dominion or Thalmor, which clearly means, this is a pointless conversation neither of us should care about. I make my point:

 

Good day to you, and I support the Stormcloaks and hate the Dominion.

[HeyYou]

Stormcloaks are the correct side. The Empire would be, but the Thalmor control them. If the Imperials control Skyrim, the Thalmor would. The Nords don't want that. You have to kick the Imperials out, and Ulfric would do the rest against the Thalmor.

 

Those who think about the treaty signed by the Thalmor and Empire was supposed to be peace, wrong. The treaty was designated toward as follows:

 

The Aldmeri Dominion stops the war against the Empire, as long as the Empire hands EVERYTHING over to the Dominion. Cyrodil is controled by the Altmer, not by the Imperials. Skyrim would be too, but the stormcloaks would stop that.

 

The terms of the White-Gold Concordat are not exactly known at this time. However, I would imagine that given both sides suffered heavy losses after the Great War, I doubt the Dominion has the military might to maintain an occupation force within Cyrodiil. It's simply not logistically feasible for them right now. In much the same way that the Empire has a hard time maintaining order within Skyrim. Both sides are substantially weakened and can't put down the authority they need to.

 

A reminder: technically the Aldmeri Dominion LOST the war. The Empire only quit because they lacked the resources for a protracted and bloody offensive. So they offered the olive branch of peace. Cyrodiil and its Empire is not a puppet force of the Dominion.

 

No they didn't. If they had, they would not have been in a position to force the ouster of talos.