Foreign Troops in Australia?

[Maharg67]

Since WWII, Allied nations have had troops deployed to other Allied nations. As Allies, it sort of helps to train together, work together and be prepared and even, yes, to show a united and strong military force to the world.

I know I enjoyed my Pacific tour, particularly Australia (Bondi Beach *sigh*) and as far as I recall no locals seemed upset with foreign troops in the area.

 

In my country - I see British, German, American and even Australian troops deployed here at military bases. I suppose I should be concerned Australia has some secret plan for gaining permanent status in my country as well?

I also don't expect my government to come and ask for a vote or local approval everytime some foreign troops are deployed here, not only a waste of my time and tax dollars, but that vote was done years ago, the cooperative agreements made and mutual benefits made apparent.

 

To be perfectly honest here, I think your Greens Party is blowing hot air in order to gain attention and generate anti-American sentiment rather than address some concern about Australian sovereignty. I also find it rather, I'll use the word "impolite" here, to suggest that it is OK to have foreign troops deployed when it is necessary and beneficial (ie: to help defend the country), but once that is accomplished and the immediate threat has passed all those foreign troops should just GTFO - at least until they are needed again.

 

While I appreciate that there will be a slightly larger presence in the area due to a change in need, if this Greens Party had any interrest in Australian sovereignty, they would understand it doesn't just exist because they say so and would be supporting a greater level of cooperation with ALL their Allies, not just those they want to pick and choose.

 

I think you miss the point, ffa1mf, and that is simply that any deployment of foreign troops on any national soil should have the permission of the the local people except under 'exceptional' circumstances. I am not talking about simple training but full emplacement of soldiers on a permanent basis. My fears with what is happening is that it is the 'thin edge of the wedge'. That is one moment there is talk of just the training deployment of a few troops and then, suddenly, there seem to be large bases firmly in place.

 

Our Australian Government has done this sort of thing before. Note that my emphasis is on the actions of the Australian Federal Government and not on the USA or anybody else. This topic is about the relationship with any national people with its government. International alliances should not automatically override any such considerations.

 

The main concern here is to make sure that the process is transparent enough for the local people to know what is going on with out threatening security matters. This is for the good of the 'foreign' troops as well as the locals.

 

One of the reasons people came to hate Soviet bases on their lands, before the collapse of the USSR, was that they had not been asked permission but had been imposed upon. The USSR was monstrously intrusive into other people's lands and its presence was always hated by many. A major part of this was the presence of large numbers of Russian troops. In comparison the presence of American troops is far more positive. Yet in many lands where there are American bases, local peoples now want them reduced or removed and one major argument for this is that they were never asked. Eg. parts of Japan. I could find other examples if you wish.

 

No vote has ever taken place in Australia about the presence of foreign troops, ever. I will not here try to speak for other countries but I doubt many were given a chance to vote. Please review your history.

 

As for the Greens Party in Australia, they are not anti-American. This can be said for some political movements but not for the Greens. The Greens have taken on board the task of bringing up issues that our major parties would rather avoid talking about (the Labour Party and the Conservatives). This is about the issue itself. I was hoping that nobody would being up the idea of 'anti-Americanism' because it has nothing to do with this topic.

 

The concern here, again, is with any foreign troops on Australian soil. There is no picking or choosing but again the desire to keep 'politicians reasonably honest' about what is going on. In all honesty I would prefer American troops on Australian soil rather than troops from a very long list of other countries I could but will not mention.

 

The Greens Party is doing a fine job which is one of the reasons that, relatively speaking, it is becoming more popular with the Australian people while people are becoming increasingly cynical of our major parties. Yet I do not always agree with the Greens Party any more than I always agree with any political party.

 

As for Australian Sovereignty, that lies in the hands of the Australian people and not with any piece of paper that speaks of alliances with other countries. Australia is our nation and our politicians, all of them, have a right to their say. You are not Australian and I would never dream of saying what your people should do or not do in the name of the sovereignty of your nation. You are welcome to your opinion, it is your right, but even Australians do not have the right to dictate what all Australians should think or say.

 

If the topic is going to go increasingly negative than perhaps it is coming to a time for it to be locked. I hope for some more positive postings that will carefully stay within the topic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Australians are not anti-American in general and we have gained a great deal of positive things from the USA.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Maharg67

[Aurielius]

"One of the reasons people came to hate Soviet bases on their lands, before the collapse of the USSR, was that they had not been asked permission but had been imposed upon. The USSR was monstrously intrusive into other people's lands and its presence was always hated by many. A major part of this was the presence of large numbers of Russian troops. In comparison the presence of American troops is far more positive. Yet in many lands where there are American bases, local peoples now want them reduced or removed and one major argument for this is that they were never asked. Eg. parts of Japan. I could find other examples if you wish."

 

Seriously you are going to compare the Soviet bases to the American ones? Soviet troops where placed in eastern Europe as part of their occupation of their imposed satellite status of those states. The bases in Japan were an outgrowth of the surrender of the Empire of Japan and later to protect them from the USSR and Soviet China, both of which the Japanese wanted especially after the occupation of the Kuril Islands at the end of WW2. It is an extreme stretch to make such a comparison between the USSR and the US even with the minor caveat that you added. It seems the only thing you do want, is reinforcement and validation of the opinion that was preformed before you started this thread. You might have well have just added 'ANNP' (Americans Need Not Post) to your initial post, that way you would have been able to get what you really wanted.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Aurielius

[Maharg67]

Aurielius, please reread my posts again.

 

You have read a great deal in my posts, into my words, that are not there. The more I try to convince you and others that I am not anti-American, the more you seem convinced that I am. It is appearing to be a waste of time and effort for me to say otherwise. You have firmly made up your mind about me and nothing I, or others say, will convince you otherwise.

 

Like a lot of Americans, but far from all Americans, you seem blind to the wider range of reactions to the USA. You also do not seem to grant validity to anything that you disagree with. I say you have every right to your opinions and just because I do not agree with them I will not try to stick you into a little box. You stick me into a little box, mark it ANTI-AMERICAN and then you do not have to really heed anything that I post.

 

Many Japanese are not happy with the American bases there; this is a fact that surprised me when I first learned it and nothing that I made up.

 

The comparison between the Soviet Union and the USA was totally about the lack of people being asked if they wanted the bases to be there. I no way was I saying that the USSR and the USA's relationship with various countries was exactly the same. I even went as far to state that I would prefer American troops on Australian soil than many others. The 'minor caveat' was not a minor caveat but my actual belief. You seem to think that if I do not automatically agree with everything that the USA wants, that automatically makes me Anti-American. My concerns are not with the USA but with Australia and our independence as a nation and a people.

 

You clearly have no idea of what my real opinions are. In truth I am always learning, always willing to change my 'opinions'. I went from being an avid Communist to being an avid Anti-Communist (bet that bit of information would surprise you) and then became more moderate. I have American friends, have had American friends, not all of whom shared my political biases at the time. The whole idea that I would even begin to support the idea of 'ANNP' is amazing to me and is the very last thing I would want. I would prefer a whole lot of Americans calling me Anti-American on their posts than to have no Americans posting at all because I believe in people having their say. To say otherwise shows you have absolutely no idea at all how I function as a thinking human being.

 

If I really did not want Americans to post, I would start no topics, simple! I want all people from all nations posting.

[marharth]

Aurielius, please reread my posts again.

 

You have read a great deal in my posts, into my words, that are not there. The more I try to convince you and others that I am not anti-American, the more you seem convinced that I am. It is appearing to be a waste of time and effort for me to say otherwise. You have firmly made up your mind about me and nothing I, or others say, will convince you otherwise.

 

Like a lot of Americans, but far from all Americans, you seem blind to the wider range of reactions to the USA. You also do not seem to grant validity to anything that you disagree with. I say you have every right to your opinions and just because I do not agree with them I will not try to stick you into a little box. You stick me into a little box, mark it ANTI-AMERICAN and then you do not have to really heed anything that I post.

 

Many Japanese are not happy with the American bases there; this is a fact that surprised me when I first learned it and nothing that I made up.

 

The comparison between the Soviet Union and the USA was totally about the lack of people being asked if they wanted the bases to be there. I no way was I saying that the USSR and the USA's relationship with various countries was exactly the same. I even went as far to state that I would prefer American troops on Australian soil than many others. The 'minor caveat' was not a minor caveat but my actual belief. You seem to think that if I do not automatically agree with everything that the USA wants, that automatically makes me Anti-American. My concerns are not with the USA but with Australia and our independence as a nation and a people.

 

You clearly have no idea of what my real opinions are. In truth I am always learning, always willing to change my 'opinions'. I went from being an avid Communist to being an avid Anti-Communist (bet that bit of information would surprise you) and then became more moderate. I have American friends, have had American friends, not all of whom shared my political biases at the time. The whole idea that I would even begin to support the idea of 'ANNP' is amazing to me and is the very last thing I would want. I would prefer a whole lot of Americans calling me Anti-American on their posts than to have no Americans posting at all because I believe in people having their say. To say otherwise shows you have absolutely no idea at all how I function as a thinking human being.

 

If I really did not want Americans to post, I would start no topics, simple! I want all people from all nations posting.

A bit off topic, but by communist do you mean Marxist Communism or Stalin Communism?

[Maharg67]

I was a Marxist Leninist and then I turned against it. Stalinism was a distortion of Marxist Leninism, taking the very worst of it and making it even more extreme. Yet Marxist Leninism itself was prone to leading towards such an outcome as a brutal regime. It is said that Lenin himself began to realize that there was need of more flexibility in the system such as the right of people to own small businesses and small farms, that this was the reason that Stalin actually had Lenin killed. The truth will most likely never be fully revealed.

 

Marx himself did not fully agree with what Lenin and the other Bolsheviks were doing. He himself preferred other groups, other 'Communist' movements.

 

The truth is so often stranger than fiction, stranger than what most people believe.

 

Back to topic, please!

[Aurielius]

@Marharg67

If you read any of my posts within this thread not once did I allude to your past or present political dispositions, so where you dredge up that knee jerk defense is beyond me. Your basic thesis is that state defense decisions as to deployments of allied not foreign troops should be put up for review and consent of the general electorate. In addition that American bases are in some way occupation of Australia instead of being a co operative effort on behalf of an allied state. There are American bases in the UK since the early 1940's for exactly the same purpose and as of yet we have not made any moves to make them the 51st-53rd states. Decisions as to military defense are not something that most without extensive knowledge are capable of making, so what you would like is to politicize the issue rather than make a sound strategic judgment. When politicians conduct military affairs the end result is usually chaotic and rarely ends well and asking the general public to weigh in has even less of a chance of getting it right.

You have made statements as to my political perceptions that have no foundation in what I actually posted, if in fact I only have pointed out the geopolitical realities as they exist. If there has been any preconceived notions as to what perceptions are on behalf of the other, I suggest that you have been the one making them.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Aurielius

[Beriallord]

"One of the reasons people came to hate Soviet bases on their lands, before the collapse of the USSR, was that they had not been asked permission but had been imposed upon. The USSR was monstrously intrusive into other people's lands and its presence was always hated by many. A major part of this was the presence of large numbers of Russian troops. In comparison the presence of American troops is far more positive. Yet in many lands where there are American bases, local peoples now want them reduced or removed and one major argument for this is that they were never asked. Eg. parts of Japan. I could find other examples if you wish."

 

Seriously you are going to compare the Soviet bases to the American ones? Soviet troops where placed in eastern Europe as part of their occupation of their imposed satellite status of those states. The bases in Japan were an outgrowth of the surrender of the Empire of Japan and later to protect them from the USSR and Soviet China, both of which the Japanese wanted especially after the occupation of the Kuril Islands at the end of WW2. It is an extreme stretch to make such a comparison between the USSR and the US even with the minor caveat that you added. It seems the only thing you do want, is reinforcement and validation of the opinion that was preformed before you started this thread. You might have well have just added 'ANNP' (Americans Need Not Post) to your initial post, that way you would have been able to get what you really wanted.

 

You know one could say the same about America keeping troops in foreign nations to enforce the satellite regimes it created in those nations with former regimes they toppled. Of course this isn't the case in Australia, but certainly the case in a country like Iraq, and Afghanistan.

 

When America Invades someone, they tend to stick around and leave a long term presence. You can see this in Germany, Japan, Korea. And now Iraq and Afghanistan. Americans would throw a fit if a foreign military was allowed to make a base on US territory. There is no reason to believe the people of those countries above don't feel the same way about American bases in their countries.

[lukertin]

You know one could say the same about America keeping troops in foreign nations to enforce the satellite regimes it created in those nations with former regimes they toppled. Of course this isn't the case in Australia, but certainly the case in a country like Iraq, and Afghanistan.

 

When America Invades someone, they tend to stick around and leave a long term presence. You can see this in Germany, Japan, Korea. And now Iraq and Afghanistan. Americans would throw a fit if a foreign military was allowed to make a base on US territory. There is no reason to believe the people of those countries above don't feel the same way about American bases in their countries.

The US never actually invaded Japan proper, or Korea, and there are two major political parties in South Korea, one promotes unification and ejection of US troops, the other promotes a hawkish stance towards NK and supports keeping US troops in SK. As for Japan, since their own armed forces have been crippled under the terms of WW2's peace treaty, I think a sizable portion of the people support keeping US Troops in the region 'just in case' of future aggression from North Korea or China.

 

I don't know about Germany, they certainly don't 'need' us there anymore and there is very little reason to keep a US base in that region, except as a gesture of goodwill towards out NATO allies in having what is essentially the strongest military in your military alliance keeping a military base in the area in the unlikely event that s*** should hits the fan.

[boredstupid420]

as a veteran army grunt I can tell you right now that I would have loved to have been stationed in your country instead of the hell holes that they put me in. but I can understand the feeling of having your national soveintry being violated