Nexus Mod Manager focus group needs more help

[mistab]

In response to post #40062970.

dotDemu wrote: I have a problem with my NMM. It won't show any Mod Updates.
Am I the only one with this problem or is there a fix for that?

same issue here, man.

Came onto this thread specifically to see if it's a known bug or not

[Bopl3r]

In response to post #40062970. #40149450 is also a reply to the same post.

dotDemu wrote: I have a problem with my NMM. It won't show any Mod Updates.
Am I the only one with this problem or is there a fix for that?

mistab wrote: same issue here, man.

Came onto this thread specifically to see if it's a known bug or not

It's a known bug and should be fixed next patch, https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/tracker/issue-56660-file-version-updateing/

[jballou]

add ability to "flag" each mods' changed files. IE If it changes a vanilla texture file,(rather than having it's own or using a vanilla resource) flag/show that file with that mod somehow in NMM. For that matter, just show all of each mods' files (and their paths) with it. extend that to showing conflicts with other installed mods (compare new+existing/cached formid's on mod installation?) add to that a simple-enough script that renumbers the formID's of the conflicting mods then generates and properly applies a patch esp/resource.(mebbe add "advanced/treed list" view to show all those extra views, default to more-or less current for avg users?) Also profiles that store my install choices somehow are a must, imho. Kinda defeats the point of a profile if I gotta re-install everything you do, I (and likely most gamers) want something I can just play my game with, not 10,000 choices to make first. I can already export from NMM and make/share a plugins.txt.zip if I want. Backup/restore as a giant game plugin works, does it include the resources (nif/texture/sound files)? What format, loose/zipped or ba2? How customizable is it (format, includes, location, all such details?) What about conflicts?

personal suggestion: Make the tools button/icon in NMM look more "Tool"-y? Looks like another configure folders button I don't wanna mess with atm, and I keep forgetting LOOT and FO4edit are integrated and running them as external proggys after I close NMM. Freely admit both my idiocy and my blindness. But pretty please?

I agree, there needs to be a lot more metadata around mods and logic to act upon it in NMM. A lot of the other things around user preferences which you mention, I also agree are needed. What might make it even easier is having that profile data saved in the NMM database as part of your user profile. JSON/YAML import/export should be available as well, but 95% of users will not know how to do that. Making the default behavior that the important settings are backed up to the user's online profile solves that problem for a much wider set of users than the power user cohort.

 

In regards to all the NMM versus MO discussion, what are the features that MO has that are missing or inferior in NMM? I think if we can say WHY people like MO better, we can look at NMM through that lens. In looking at the GitHub page for MO, I'm impressed with the scope and feedback of that project, and that should be looked to as a great source of improvements that we can leverage.

[RealmEleven]

I don't know if this is the place for it, but I've currently got a little problem which could be greatly helped by [suggestion incoming] the ability review my mod installation history and roll changes back and forward to track down glitches and unexpected conflicts.

 

The 'Install Date' and 'Download Date' columns, by the way, carry no data on my system. This would have been very handy for tracking the bug I'm hunting. Is the current version (0.61.23) supposed to fill these columns yet?

 

EDIT: "This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them!"

Those emoticons seem to be getting a little eager, these days...

Edited July 6, 2016 by RealmEleven

[kkthebeast]

In response to post #40155275.

jballou wrote:

add ability to "flag" each mods' changed files. IE If it changes a vanilla texture file,(rather than having it's own or using a vanilla resource) flag/show that file with that mod somehow in NMM. For that matter, just show all of each mods' files (and their paths) with it. extend that to showing conflicts with other installed mods (compare new+existing/cached formid's on mod installation?) add to that a simple-enough script that renumbers the formID's of the conflicting mods then generates and properly applies a patch esp/resource.(mebbe add "advanced/treed list" view to show all those extra views, default to more-or less current for avg users?) Also profiles that store my install choices somehow are a must, imho. Kinda defeats the point of a profile if I gotta re-install everything you do, I (and likely most gamers) want something I can just play my game with, not 10,000 choices to make first. I can already export from NMM and make/share a plugins.txt.zip if I want. Backup/restore as a giant game plugin works, does it include the resources (nif/texture/sound files)? What format, loose/zipped or ba2? How customizable is it (format, includes, location, all such details?) What about conflicts?
personal suggestion: Make the tools button/icon in NMM look more "Tool"-y? Looks like another configure folders button I don't wanna mess with atm, and I keep forgetting LOOT and FO4edit are integrated and running them as external proggys after I close NMM. Freely admit both my idiocy and my blindness. But pretty please?

I agree, there needs to be a lot more metadata around mods and logic to act upon it in NMM. A lot of the other things around user preferences which you mention, I also agree are needed. What might make it even easier is having that profile data saved in the NMM database as part of your user profile. JSON/YAML import/export should be available as well, but 95% of users will not know how to do that. Making the default behavior that the important settings are backed up to the user's online profile solves that problem for a much wider set of users than the power user cohort.

 

In regards to all the NMM versus MO discussion, what are the features that MO has that are missing or inferior in NMM? I think if we can say WHY people like MO better, we can look at NMM through that lens. In looking at the GitHub page for MO, I'm impressed with the scope and feedback of that project, and that should be looked to as a great source of improvements that we can leverage.

One small feature from MO I would like to see in NMM is the ability to see both your Plugins list and your mods at the same time. Going back and forth trying to adjust the load order while sorting by download date, vs installed date is a pain.

Edited July 6, 2016 by kkthebeast

[kkthebeast]

In response to post #40015630. #40058265, #40085015, #40091830, #40102215, #40122155, #40132340 are all replies on the same post.

stebo104 wrote: DO NOT USE NMM use instead MO (Mod Organizer). NMM puts all mods into your game data folders and over/re writes several files, which over time if you change mods alot will ruin your base game files (making game unplayable and having your redownload whole game). Now MO on the other hand puts all mods into a mod only folder within MO. When you run the game, it creates a virtual folder to run games (ie skyrim, fo4, fonv, ect) with the mods you have active. Not to mention when it comes to same files from different mods rewriting over and over again, MO uses a priority list (such as a texture file from mods A B C and D, if in order of A-1, C-2, B-3, D-4 it will use the texture file from mod D as 4 is higher then 1.) Now MO also has some advanced features, but you'd have to go to youtude and watch some videos on that.

djtalks wrote: Yeah, your full of crap... Clearly havnt used NMM of late. To be quite honest I liked it better when there wasn't a virtual folder. You MO fan boys kill me. Texture mods are just overwrites..
You basicly added yourself a whole new load order to fight with and think its cool.

If you don't want to use it don't.. But don't show up here acting like something is better that dose the same thing. Like I have said many times and will say again a lot of mods have issue being installed with MO I have 2 I made that I just click and hit yes to all in NMM and it works. MO users still have issues installing them.

HadToRegister wrote: Yea, and you can't even download and install MO.
It says "Install Failed" because of some "Connection Error"
Pretty hard to try a Mod Organizer you can't even install

PirateZ86 wrote: If you want to just hate MO for everything, go ahead but if you are want to really get a solution, they have a troubleshooting page on Github. They help people fix issues.

@djtalks : Having my data folder clean and choosing which mods overwrites which even after installing just by dragging it above or below, creating profiles is really good. I don't have a single mod issue with MO, please specify a few. I have nothing against NMM as it's good but MO is far superior atleast for me. A single person creating a tool for everyone without expecting anything in return must be appreciated not insulted because of your petty fanboy feelings. If you are paid to do that I'm happy for you since it atleast benefits you rather than just emotional talks.

TheLionHearted27 wrote: The reality is that people with very limited experience or knowledge of mods, can use NMM as a starting platform to jump into the modding scene. NMM is easy to install and to use. MO takes some knowledge and practice, its not outright easy to use, for lets say, a 10-12 year old kid who just wants to add a few mods to his/her game. Try explaining everything you just said to someone who has never modded a day in their life, they'll give you the "wtf" face...lol! NMM for a complete beginner is a simple tool to get started with, and panders to a wider range of users on both sides of the spectrum, that being authors and casual gamers. Smart business savvy people understand that to get more customers/clients, you need to expand your horizons and cater to all types of users. MO isn't as widely used, because it has a harder learning curve. It's great for everything it can do, and in your opinion does some things better than NMM, but this is circumstantial, due to your preference of features.

idplayer wrote: since oblivion i tested all mod organizers. i'm sure that experienced users currently would never go back to another mod organizing tool if the they understand the principles of mod organizer and are able to handle this platform properly.
some need the experience of 10 new full installations, some other need 100 or more to realize that mo is a gem. this is the only tool you never need to do a full installation again and to have full control over all mods.
nmm is absolutely ok for beginners and if using only a few known and hopefully bugfree mods. using more will surely end up in a full installation simply because the first bigger dirty mod will physically screw up all the other installed mods without a chance to reverse the mess. i fully agree with lionhearted and i recommend all who are happy with nmm to use it until they are tired doing full installations with a ton of mods

HadToRegister wrote: @PirateZ86

The only "Fanboys" here who are insulting anybody, is YOU and stebo14, as this entire thread is about a NEXUS MOD MANAGER FOCUS GROUP, NOT about Mod Organizer.

It was an insult to the NMM team, and an "emotional talk" on your, and stebo14's part to tell everybody NOT to use NMM in an NMM Focus Group thread.
Don't hijack the thread with advertisements about MO, I doubt people are going to github and telling people to use NMM. (And if they are, then shame on them too)

Yeah unfortunately for me I had nothing but trouble with MO, Instant CTD when trying to run FO4, LOOT instantly CTD, And F4SE would not load either. I like the interface though, Being able to see your Plugins list and installed Mods at the same time was nice.

Maybe we could see some of the interface tweaks in NMM. like being able to pin the Plugins and Mods to the same windows. That would be handy for manually sorting the load order. (I Can't really use loot, With VIS there are too many "unregistered" patches that LOOT doesn't know what to do with.) Edited July 6, 2016 by kkthebeast

[kkthebeast]

One small feature from MO I would like to see in NMM is the ability to see both your Plugins list and your mods at the same time. Going back and forth trying to adjust the load order while sorting by download date, vs installed date is a pain. Being able to "pin" the windows side by side like the download and installation window would be cool!

 

Another feature that would be amazing. would be the ability for NMM to remember the load order position of a mods files so that they could be reinserted into the same load order position when you update a mod instead of pushing it to the very bottom (which is a pain when you do something like Valdacil's Item sorting custom install + a slew of VIS patches for other mods, Currently when we update VIS we have to drag 10 esp files all the way back in the load order to get it back where it was.)

 

The logic behind this would be and manual update tagging system, where you could right click on an existing mod and select "Tag for update" then right click on the new version and select "Update with selected mod" it would then locate it current load order, remove the installed mod, install the new mod, and re position the new mods load order where the orginal mod was located.

 

That would be a pretty sweet addition, Make NMM stand out in the crowd and save a ton of time!

Edited July 6, 2016 by kkthebeast

[idplayer]

In response to post #40015630. #40058265, #40085015, #40091830, #40102215, #40122155, #40132340, #40188950 are all replies on the same post.

stebo104 wrote: DO NOT USE NMM use instead MO (Mod Organizer). NMM puts all mods into your game data folders and over/re writes several files, which over time if you change mods alot will ruin your base game files (making game unplayable and having your redownload whole game). Now MO on the other hand puts all mods into a mod only folder within MO. When you run the game, it creates a virtual folder to run games (ie skyrim, fo4, fonv, ect) with the mods you have active. Not to mention when it comes to same files from different mods rewriting over and over again, MO uses a priority list (such as a texture file from mods A B C and D, if in order of A-1, C-2, B-3, D-4 it will use the texture file from mod D as 4 is higher then 1.) Now MO also has some advanced features, but you'd have to go to youtude and watch some videos on that.

djtalks wrote: Yeah, your full of crap... Clearly havnt used NMM of late. To be quite honest I liked it better when there wasn't a virtual folder. You MO fan boys kill me. Texture mods are just overwrites..
You basicly added yourself a whole new load order to fight with and think its cool.

If you don't want to use it don't.. But don't show up here acting like something is better that dose the same thing. Like I have said many times and will say again a lot of mods have issue being installed with MO I have 2 I made that I just click and hit yes to all in NMM and it works. MO users still have issues installing them.

HadToRegister wrote: Yea, and you can't even download and install MO.
It says "Install Failed" because of some "Connection Error"
Pretty hard to try a Mod Organizer you can't even install

PirateZ86 wrote: If you want to just hate MO for everything, go ahead but if you are want to really get a solution, they have a troubleshooting page on Github. They help people fix issues.

@djtalks : Having my data folder clean and choosing which mods overwrites which even after installing just by dragging it above or below, creating profiles is really good. I don't have a single mod issue with MO, please specify a few. I have nothing against NMM as it's good but MO is far superior atleast for me. A single person creating a tool for everyone without expecting anything in return must be appreciated not insulted because of your petty fanboy feelings. If you are paid to do that I'm happy for you since it atleast benefits you rather than just emotional talks.

TheLionHearted27 wrote: The reality is that people with very limited experience or knowledge of mods, can use NMM as a starting platform to jump into the modding scene. NMM is easy to install and to use. MO takes some knowledge and practice, its not outright easy to use, for lets say, a 10-12 year old kid who just wants to add a few mods to his/her game. Try explaining everything you just said to someone who has never modded a day in their life, they'll give you the "wtf" face...lol! NMM for a complete beginner is a simple tool to get started with, and panders to a wider range of users on both sides of the spectrum, that being authors and casual gamers. Smart business savvy people understand that to get more customers/clients, you need to expand your horizons and cater to all types of users. MO isn't as widely used, because it has a harder learning curve. It's great for everything it can do, and in your opinion does some things better than NMM, but this is circumstantial, due to your preference of features.

idplayer wrote: since oblivion i tested all mod organizers. i'm sure that experienced users currently would never go back to another mod organizing tool if the they understand the principles of mod organizer and are able to handle this platform properly.
some need the experience of 10 new full installations, some other need 100 or more to realize that mo is a gem. this is the only tool you never need to do a full installation again and to have full control over all mods.
nmm is absolutely ok for beginners and if using only a few known and hopefully bugfree mods. using more will surely end up in a full installation simply because the first bigger dirty mod will physically screw up all the other installed mods without a chance to reverse the mess. i fully agree with lionhearted and i recommend all who are happy with nmm to use it until they are tired doing full installations with a ton of mods

HadToRegister wrote: @PirateZ86

The only "Fanboys" here who are insulting anybody, is YOU and stebo14, as this entire thread is about a NEXUS MOD MANAGER FOCUS GROUP, NOT about Mod Organizer.

It was an insult to the NMM team, and an "emotional talk" on your, and stebo14's part to tell everybody NOT to use NMM in an NMM Focus Group thread.
Don't hijack the thread with advertisements about MO, I doubt people are going to github and telling people to use NMM. (And if they are, then shame on them too)

kkthebeast wrote: Yeah unfortunately for me I had nothing but trouble with MO, Instant CTD when trying to run FO4, LOOT instantly CTD, And F4SE would not load either. I like the interface though, Being able to see your Plugins list and installed Mods at the same time was nice.

Maybe we could see some of the interface tweaks in NMM. like being able to pin the Plugins and Mods to the same windows. That would be handy for manually sorting the load order. (I Can't really use loot, With VIS there are too many "unregistered" patches that LOOT doesn't know what to do with.)

@kkthebeast - your inability to handle mo successfully doesn't change the fact that the virtual file system and the pysical separation of the mods is superior in long term use. your described problems are as far as you described not mo related.
the physical separation of mod files should become a key feature in nmm. if so it would be a competitive tool for the use in a complex setup environment. in my opinion this is a key feature for long term stability and the prerequisite for 100% save rollback in case of a faulty mod or installtion error without the necessity to reinstall all the previously installed and affected mods. i'm sure many nmm users would be happy to see this feature included in nmm Edited July 6, 2016 by idplayer

[GingerRemedy]

In response to post #40189165.

kkthebeast wrote: One small feature from MO I would like to see in NMM is the ability to see both your Plugins list and your mods at the same time. Going back and forth trying to adjust the load order while sorting by download date, vs installed date is a pain. Being able to "pin" the windows side by side like the download and installation window would be cool!

Another feature that would be amazing. would be the ability for NMM to remember the load order position of a mods files so that they could be reinserted into the same load order position when you update a mod instead of pushing it to the very bottom (which is a pain when you do something like Valdacil's Item sorting custom install + a slew of VIS patches for other mods, Currently when we update VIS we have to drag 10 esp files all the way back in the load order to get it back where it was.)

The logic behind this would be and manual update tagging system, where you could right click on an existing mod and select "Tag for update" then right click on the new version and select "Update with selected mod" it would then locate it current load order, remove the installed mod, install the new mod, and re position the new mods load order where the orginal mod was located.

That would be a pretty sweet addition, Make NMM stand out in the crowd and save a ton of time!

You can actually see both plugins and your mods at the same time. you just have to drag the "plugins" tab and "mods" tab around and you can have both up at once. You can even go as far as making both tabs their own "mini" windows separate from rest of the interface.


And the "Tag for update" idea I do agree with. It would make fallout 4 modding much easier. Or at least an easier way to tell when a specific mod has been updated than the slightly annoying columns NMM currently has (probably only my problem since of my current set up)

[underskyzx]

In response to post #40015630. #40058265, #40085015, #40091830, #40102215, #40122155, #40132340, #40188950, #40205240 are all replies on the same post.

stebo104 wrote: DO NOT USE NMM use instead MO (Mod Organizer). NMM puts all mods into your game data folders and over/re writes several files, which over time if you change mods alot will ruin your base game files (making game unplayable and having your redownload whole game). Now MO on the other hand puts all mods into a mod only folder within MO. When you run the game, it creates a virtual folder to run games (ie skyrim, fo4, fonv, ect) with the mods you have active. Not to mention when it comes to same files from different mods rewriting over and over again, MO uses a priority list (such as a texture file from mods A B C and D, if in order of A-1, C-2, B-3, D-4 it will use the texture file from mod D as 4 is higher then 1.) Now MO also has some advanced features, but you'd have to go to youtude and watch some videos on that.

djtalks wrote: Yeah, your full of crap... Clearly havnt used NMM of late. To be quite honest I liked it better when there wasn't a virtual folder. You MO fan boys kill me. Texture mods are just overwrites..
You basicly added yourself a whole new load order to fight with and think its cool.

If you don't want to use it don't.. But don't show up here acting like something is better that dose the same thing. Like I have said many times and will say again a lot of mods have issue being installed with MO I have 2 I made that I just click and hit yes to all in NMM and it works. MO users still have issues installing them.

HadToRegister wrote: Yea, and you can't even download and install MO.
It says "Install Failed" because of some "Connection Error"
Pretty hard to try a Mod Organizer you can't even install

PirateZ86 wrote: If you want to just hate MO for everything, go ahead but if you are want to really get a solution, they have a troubleshooting page on Github. They help people fix issues.

@djtalks : Having my data folder clean and choosing which mods overwrites which even after installing just by dragging it above or below, creating profiles is really good. I don't have a single mod issue with MO, please specify a few. I have nothing against NMM as it's good but MO is far superior atleast for me. A single person creating a tool for everyone without expecting anything in return must be appreciated not insulted because of your petty fanboy feelings. If you are paid to do that I'm happy for you since it atleast benefits you rather than just emotional talks.

TheLionHearted27 wrote: The reality is that people with very limited experience or knowledge of mods, can use NMM as a starting platform to jump into the modding scene. NMM is easy to install and to use. MO takes some knowledge and practice, its not outright easy to use, for lets say, a 10-12 year old kid who just wants to add a few mods to his/her game. Try explaining everything you just said to someone who has never modded a day in their life, they'll give you the "wtf" face...lol! NMM for a complete beginner is a simple tool to get started with, and panders to a wider range of users on both sides of the spectrum, that being authors and casual gamers. Smart business savvy people understand that to get more customers/clients, you need to expand your horizons and cater to all types of users. MO isn't as widely used, because it has a harder learning curve. It's great for everything it can do, and in your opinion does some things better than NMM, but this is circumstantial, due to your preference of features.

idplayer wrote: since oblivion i tested all mod organizers. i'm sure that experienced users currently would never go back to another mod organizing tool if the they understand the principles of mod organizer and are able to handle this platform properly.
some need the experience of 10 new full installations, some other need 100 or more to realize that mo is a gem. this is the only tool you never need to do a full installation again and to have full control over all mods.
nmm is absolutely ok for beginners and if using only a few known and hopefully bugfree mods. using more will surely end up in a full installation simply because the first bigger dirty mod will physically screw up all the other installed mods without a chance to reverse the mess. i fully agree with lionhearted and i recommend all who are happy with nmm to use it until they are tired doing full installations with a ton of mods

HadToRegister wrote: @PirateZ86

The only "Fanboys" here who are insulting anybody, is YOU and stebo14, as this entire thread is about a NEXUS MOD MANAGER FOCUS GROUP, NOT about Mod Organizer.

It was an insult to the NMM team, and an "emotional talk" on your, and stebo14's part to tell everybody NOT to use NMM in an NMM Focus Group thread.
Don't hijack the thread with advertisements about MO, I doubt people are going to github and telling people to use NMM. (And if they are, then shame on them too)

kkthebeast wrote: Yeah unfortunately for me I had nothing but trouble with MO, Instant CTD when trying to run FO4, LOOT instantly CTD, And F4SE would not load either. I like the interface though, Being able to see your Plugins list and installed Mods at the same time was nice.

Maybe we could see some of the interface tweaks in NMM. like being able to pin the Plugins and Mods to the same windows. That would be handy for manually sorting the load order. (I Can't really use loot, With VIS there are too many "unregistered" patches that LOOT doesn't know what to do with.)

idplayer wrote: @kkthebeast - your inability to handle mo successfully doesn't change the fact that the virtual file system and the pysical separation of the mods is superior in long term use. your described problems are as far as you described not mo related.
the physical separation of mod files should become a key feature in nmm. if so it would be a competitive tool for the use in a complex setup environment. in my opinion this is a key feature for long term stability and the prerequisite for 100% save rollback in case of a faulty mod or installtion error without the necessity to reinstall all the previously installed and affected mods. i'm sure many nmm users would be happy to see this feature included in nmm

MO if you serious about modding, NMM if you just want to get things working.