RPG does not equal 'numbers'

[Ghogiel]

I partially disagree. I am also very bored of D&D clone style RPGs.

 

Stats and numbers are still important and always will be due to the fact even if you hide those numbers from the user experience, you still need them. The classic example in MW and Ob, they hide the to hit dice roll and configured the combat skills and stats to represent a more fluid experience, the numbers are still there, they just used them differently and that is reflected in the gameplay. You may as well play an adventure game if you do not think stats, or numbers, have a fairly permanent place in RPGS. Your idea "maybe even the deepest role-play ever due to its mix of graphics, gameplay, and astounding world-building and depth" isn't saying anything about what it is about the graphics, gameplay, worldbuilding and depth that actually makes it an RPG at all. You need to narrow your definition down to what an RPG means to you before you can get any sort of reasonable discourse on RPGs.

 

Anyway as far as numbers go, I would be scared if they do remove skill levels entirely from a TES game, it would feel... vague. I support more skills(and visible skill and character levels). Things like a hierarchy of them, (perks do start that direction) or secondary sub set of skills is the way forward imo. So old skills like the languages and climbing skills as seen in previous games are still represented in the game world, what happened instead is that because the skills were rather unequally balanced, they instead of finding a solution in the game design to keep such things in, they took the easy path and removed them entirely, stripping the game of potential depth. The caveat to that is making a game playable without any need for such skills, but also making them at least interesting and slightly rewarding to pursue, but this also starts to present some small to rather large challenges in the game design and execution. I can see perk trees developing into this somewhat, Like speechcraft could have quests to learn say giant tongue, and unlocks some perks... It's not too far fetched to start to slowly gain ground back to MORE stuff.

 

IF they structured the skills in such a way as to allow for skills so that they didn't have to compete with skills that are more useful than others, then there could be a place for the daggerfall skills... and then some. Obviously they don't go this route is that it makes more sense to have a less developed but coherent and polished world.

 

That said I like skyrim a lot. It's a good, fun, well stocked, well polished solid game ( with bags of modding potential with is the most important thing :)) . It's quite refreshing to play and gives me hope for the series after Ob sucking so much.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Ghogiel

[soot00]

Well put OP. Skyrim world is amazing, the npcs at each town, city or village with their own atmosphere, the idle chatter....couriers approaching you with "notes", bandits coming to you to hold onto stuff as you make the choice to return or turn the bandit in, a lone female traveller asking you for help with bandits only to lead you into an ambush. So much little detail put into this game that creates the RPG experience.

 

I love Skyrim and will only continue to get better....!!

Edited November 18, 2011 by soot00

[Ozimandias]

I'm all for more options (skills), but i don't need a numerical indication of how good i am.

If these numbers must be there for the game engine calculations, then so be it.

I just like the idea that there are some things i can do now, and there are some things i will be able to do with more training/experience.

Knowing that X amount of practice will enable me to do a particular thing spoils it. I prefer to keep practicing until it works.

This should also make the player more cautious and not so Gung Ho. (I play Dead is Dead, start a new character).

Apart from the fantasy aspect, I like real world physics. The more REAL the better, just hide the numbers.

 

ozi

[Rennn]

I'm all for more options (skills), but i don't need a numerical indication of how good i am.

If these numbers must be there for the game engine calculations, then so be it.

I just like the idea that there are some things i can do now, and there are some things i will be able to do with more training/experience.

Knowing that X amount of practice will enable me to do a particular thing spoils it. I prefer to keep practicing until it works.

This should also make the player more cautious and not so Gung Ho. (I play Dead is Dead, start a new character).

Apart from the fantasy aspect, I like real world physics. The more REAL the better, just hide the numbers.

 

ozi

 

Agreed.

 

I'm conflicted right now as to whether I should play 'dead is dead'. On one hand it sounds like it would be pretty tense in gameplay, and on the other hand, it sounds like it could be soul-crushing.

[Deleted472477User]

Agreed. I tell people i play RPGs, not spreadsheets.

[ZomBBoognish]

For me the way I've been playing the game testifies to the quality of this game as a RPG. Even though I could, for the most part, experience everything through one character I find myself constantly wanting to keep each character true to the personality I was thinking of when I started it. Since the idea of who each character is was conceived before I played through, it has been so much fun to see how my play through and personalities are evolving as new things come up. I started one as the completely good and just person. Classic night in armor stuff. Joined the companions and was really tempted by something slightly unsettling. Later found myself justifying and rationalizing some actions in order to take part in it. Any game where I can get into my character enough to think "Well...It's not really so bad if I do it for the right reasons.." is doing a good job as a RPG.

 

Edit: Oh **** I spelled knight like night. *embarrassed face*

Edited November 18, 2011 by ZomBBoognish

[chrismgtis]

While, I am happy with the new system and not being forced to select a "class", not having "numbers" as you call it, does make it less of an RPG.

[Shantih]

I partially disagree. I am also very bored of D&D clone style RPGs.

 

Stats and numbers are still important and always will be due to the fact even if you hide those numbers from the user experience, you still need them. The classic example in MW and Ob, they hide the to hit dice roll and configured the combat skills and stats to represent a more fluid experience, the numbers are still there, they just used them differently and that is reflected in the gameplay. You may as well play an adventure game if you do not think stats, or numbers, have a fairly permanent place in RPGS. Your idea "maybe even the deepest role-play ever due to its mix of graphics, gameplay, and astounding world-building and depth" isn't saying anything about what it is about the graphics, gameplay, worldbuilding and depth that actually makes it an RPG at all. You need to narrow your definition down to what an RPG means to you before you can get any sort of reasonable discourse on RPGs.

 

Anyway as far as numbers go, I would be scared if they do remove skill levels entirely from a TES game, it would feel... vague. I support more skills(and visible skill and character levels). Things like a hierarchy of them, (perks do start that direction) or secondary sub set of skills is the way forward imo. So old skills like the languages and climbing skills as seen in previous games are still represented in the game world, what happened instead is that because the skills were rather unequally balanced, they instead of finding a solution in the game design to keep such things in, they took the easy path and removed them entirely, stripping the game of potential depth. The caveat to that is making a game playable without any need for such skills, but also making them at least interesting and slightly rewarding to pursue, but this also starts to present some small to rather large challenges in the game design and execution. I can see perk trees developing into this somewhat, Like speechcraft could have quests to learn say giant tongue, and unlocks some perks... It's not too far fetched to start to slowly gain ground back to MORE stuff.

 

IF they structured the skills in such a way as to allow for skills so that they didn't have to compete with skills that are more useful than others, then there could be a place for the daggerfall skills... and then some. Obviously they don't go this route is that it makes more sense to have a less developed but coherent and polished world.

 

That said I like skyrim a lot. It's a good, fun, well stocked, well polished solid game ( with bags of modding potential with is the most important thing :)) . It's quite refreshing to play and gives me hope for the series after Ob sucking so much.

 

What you've posted is true when it comes to CRPGs and computer games, when playing a pen and paper RPG you can pretty much get rid of everything (rules, dice, character sheets) provided the game master and the players get along and nothing can compare to this sort of freedom.

 

That being said I can't imagine a computer game ever being as good as a pen and paper game in that respect. Even online gaming fails to convey the same elements IMO. A pen and paper RPG is a social event first and foremost. But I'm straying away from the subject at hand.

 

I think getting rid of stats was a bold move and I salute the devs for having the balls to do this since it should have been pretty obvious that it wouldn't be a popular decision. I totally agree with the OP. I think that it's a huge part of the RPG elements in Skyrim, I just wish they would have taken things further (especially regarding quests) but compared to Oblivion this is a definitely a huge step in the right direction.

 

I'm glad to see that some posters feel the way I do about RPGs not being about numbers.

 

While, I am happy with the new system and not being forced to select a "class", not having "numbers" as you call it, does make it less of an RPG.

 

No it doesn't.

 

Numbers in RPGs are like crutches, you may need them to walk around until you feel confident that you can stand on your own two feet.

 

The best roleplaying experience has nothing to do with stats or numbers, it's about using your wit and your imagination and no computer will ever beat that.

 

Someone brought up D&D and I'd like to post a quote from Gary Gygax (if you don't know who Gary Gygax is, don't pass Go and don't collect 200 dollars) this is a very famous quote and I think it's appropriate in this context:

 

"A DM only rolls the dice because of the noise they make."

 

In other words dice (or numbers) are never meant to stand in the way of a roleplayer's imagination.

 

If you lose sight of that then you're no longer roleplaying, you may as well be playing a wargame or an adventure game and there's nothing wrong with that but whatever it may be it's definitely not roleplaying.

[Rennn]

While, I am happy with the new system and not being forced to select a "class", not having "numbers" as you call it, does make it less of an RPG.

 

I'm pretty sure I explained why that is not the case :/

[Namorax]

I guess everyone has his/her own opinions about what an RPG "is".

For me, it's the story, the world itself and how my hero can act in relation to it. Which means a good story is important, I dont want to force myself to play the game and the more options I have to choose from the better. Some might think its great that the removed the "numbers". As far as I am concerned, it just means they simplyfied everything and reduced the options I have.

 

I feel "boxed in" in a game whose greatest feature is the "immersion" provided by its "sand-box" scenario: An Elder Scrolls game is a world where I can go where I want, do what I want, when I want and nobody is able to tell me "no" or "do it this way" (exception: Flying Dragons, Inaccessible areas, Bosses that are too strong to defeat, scripted Events/Quests etc...). Skyrim might have an open world but compared to the past, my options became more or less inconsequental. "Removing the numbers" means that "something" HAS to be lost.

 

Maybe numbers really are crutches. Maybe they help me comparing my alter ego to other characters. Maybe I like getting a statistical proof that I managed to improve my hero or do something.

Maybe I just play the game because I want to see the graphics. Or the stories behind the graphics. Everyone has their own favorite way of playing an RPG.

I just think its sad when an open world RPG like the "Elder Scrolls" starts to remove things because they're deemed unnecessary. If I delete part of a world, all that remains is a hole whose presence might or might not be noticed.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Namorax