Boycott Beth.net

[smooster]

Just a shame theres no such thing as a paid Betheseda mod at the minute so your free market and its laws dont really apply to it

Edited July 19, 2016 by smooster

[hittman1970]

I believe that everyone is entitled to use what ever form or place of expression. I think, well I hope, the author of this discussion was expressing a concern that we have already lost some modders who have pulled all their mods from Nexus because of the theft issue. I think that if as a community we all express our concern, what ever form that might be including boycott(if necessary), to Beth.net is not a bad thing. I for one will send an email to their customer service department expressing my dissatisfaction at their disregard for the wonderful people who actually make Fallout/Skyrim what it is. Modders have always been the driving force behind their popularity not so much the game itself. Skyrim would never have lasted this long without your hard work and effort to create a place where everyone can enjoy a break from reality and just enjoy living in our imagination. I think if an Author wants to put their mod onto a Beth.net than that is their choice and no one has the right to take that away from them. Having said that we do need to be cautious of a corporation whose sole purpose in being there is to make money any way possible. Instead of such a derisive post, why not post something that explains the discontent and ask everyone for an input to address this problem of losing more modders who will pull their mods from Nexus? Let's not let an outside entity whose sole purpose is to make money destroy something that everyone loves and cherishes. Well, that is my two cent on the matter. Love and Peace on to you!

[lelcat]

I believe that everyone is entitled to use what ever form or place of expression. I think, well I hope, the author of this discussion was expressing a concern that we have already lost some modders who have pulled all their mods from Nexus because of the theft issue. I think that if as a community we all express our concern, what ever form that might be including boycott(if necessary), to Beth.net is not a bad thing. I for one will send an email to their customer service department expressing my dissatisfaction at their disregard for the wonderful people who actually make Fallout/Skyrim what it is. Modders have always been the driving force behind their popularity not so much the game itself. Skyrim would never have lasted this long without your hard work and effort to create a place where everyone can enjoy a break from reality and just enjoy living in our imagination. I think if an Author wants to put their mod onto a Beth.net than that is their choice and no one has the right to take that away from them. Having said that we do need to be cautious of a corporation whose sole purpose in being there is to make money any way possible. Instead of such a derisive post, why not post something that explains the discontent and ask everyone for an input to address this problem of losing more modders who will pull their mods from Nexus? Let's not let an outside entity whose sole purpose is to make money destroy something that everyone loves and cherishes. Well, that is my two cent on the matter. Love and Peace on to you!

That is not true, Bethesda is a company that is there to make money by making awesome games. And how long skyrim lasted is not relevant. What matters for the company is that it sold many copies. If the base game would have been trash, then mods would not have made a difference.

And let's be real for a sec, every Bethesda game since Morrowind was great

Edited July 19, 2016 by lelcat

[gunslinger6792]

 

That is not true, Bethesda is a company that is there to make money by making awesome games. And how long skyrim lasted is not relevant. What matters for the company is that it sold many copies. If the base game would have been trash, then mods would not have made a difference.

And let's be real for a sec, every Bethesda game since Morrowind was great

 

There you go again trying to stir crap up. I have to admit though you're persistent and mildly entertaining to watch every now and then. It does make me wonder if you're just a generic internet troll or if in the past someone in the nexus pissed you off?

[lelcat]

 

 

That is not true, Bethesda is a company that is there to make money by making awesome games. And how long skyrim lasted is not relevant. What matters for the company is that it sold many copies. If the base game would have been trash, then mods would not have made a difference.

And let's be real for a sec, every Bethesda game since Morrowind was great

 

There you go again trying to stir crap up. I have to admit though you're persistent and mildly entertaining to watch every now and then. It does make me wonder if you're just a generic internet troll or if in the past someone in the nexus pissed you off?

 

They did not teach you at home how to argue without screaming troll at someone praising bethesda? Trying to pull that is not going to work.

Haven't you bought all Bethesda games since Morrowind like me?

[snapper69]

In what reality does anyone think that it's a good idea to "go to war" (my words) with the company that makes the game? Bethesda have proved, in the past, (accidentaly or on purpose) that if they want to block mods they can do so.

[lelcat]

In what reality does anyone think that it's a good idea to "go to war" (my words) with the company that makes the game? Bethesda have proved, in the past, (accidentaly or on purpose) that if they want to block mods they can do so.

I think it is because of the misconception that modders save games and free political prisoners. Let me put the relationship between mods and the game into a metaphore:

 

Bethesda creates a marble statue of supreme detail and spends years of work on it. Then some modder climbs on top of it and puts a folded paper hat on it and claims he fixed the game. This then snowballs into the public opinion that game developers only code "hello world" applications and modders are supposedly doing all the hard work saving the company and keeping the game alive.

 

A game is only kept alive by the built-in replay value. And mods simply attach themselves to the tail of it. 99% of a game is made by the developers. Mods are recycling content mostly and provide welcome additions to it. But they can only do so because the base game was built to allow it. So all the Bethesda haters should say thank you for Fallout 4. Because it is the most replayable and dynamic Bethesda game to date.

Edited July 19, 2016 by lelcat

[TimeLadyKatie]

 

Just as an aside, it always amuses me when all the men in an argument think something wasn't sexist and the women think it was.

 

But when all is said and done, that derailed a derailment talking about paid modding. Which isn't actually happening, at least not at the moment, and has been the subject of more conversation in this thread than any actual issues with policies and developments that are really happening and people apparently, allegedly, want to address.

Just because when a woman claims something is sexist, does not mean she is always right. Men would spend more money on cars than women would often find reasonable and boob mods are more popular among guys. Now if a woman would say that to me, do you really think I would scream sexist at that? Just because a man happens to bring up differences in genders in a topic does not mean it is sexist.

 

 

About the free market and its laws, there is no need to get esoteric about it. Its laws do apply to Bethesda mods. A paid mod will demand a higher quality or people simply won't buy it. That is the reason a game like Fallout can command 60$ and a game like Spelunky can only command 15$

 

 

So, I'm going in on both these points. If I implied that I needed to make an analogy about football so you could, as a man, understand it I would be being sexist as all s#*!. Making your analogy about shoes because, clearly, I couldn't understand your point unless you appealed to the fundamental truth of all women that we obsess over shoes (I own four pair, can couldn't tell you a damn thing about them other than I hate heels and what color they are) is not only assuming some truth about me because my reproductive organs are on the inside and not the outside, but also is implying that I cannot understand free market ideology without you putting it into terms a 'title lady brain' could get.

 

And here's the kicker - I understand the theory of free markets a hell of a lot better than you do. My undergrad is in political theory. The ideas you've expressed show a very basic and sanitized understanding of market behavior that is absolutely unrealistic when human decision making is factored in. People do not always buy the objectively best product per the price, sometimes people buy absolute garbage for any number of reasons. Pretty packaging, distrust of reviewers, whimsy, misunderstanding... and that's not even factoring in the differences in tastes. Pepsi and Coke don't have to compete on price or quality because they appeal to different tastes (be they actual or cultural), and in modding the subjectivity of what is or isn't good is about a million times more complicated than that.

 

And sometimes, people will buy and support based on the sheer antithesis of reason. I used the "one extra apple" mod for Skyrim as an example before. That attracted so many purchasers because of it exemplifying the exact opposite of what the market dictates behavior ought to be. It was a choice grounded in whimsy and rebellion against rational self-interest. The Internet nurtures this sort of action by its nature. Because of that, even if all other things were equal, you still could not use market dynamics to predict an increase in mod quality. Because sometimes the worst of mods will be the highest of interest.

 

A more recent example is "Pew Pew", the laser sound replacer that was one of the reasons NVIDIA's contest must've been rigged. I invite the possibility, though, that Pew Pew earned it's place among the finalists by being the new extra apple, the new thing people supported out of that intangible desire to buck 'the system' in whatever form it takes by supporting the least rational choice.

 

 

 

Bethesda creates a marble statue of supreme detail and spends years of work on it. Then some modder climbs on top of it and puts a folded paper hat on it and claims he fixed the game.

 

A game is only kept alive by the built-in replay value. And mods simply attach themselves to the tail of it. 99% of a game is made by the developers. Mods are recycling content mostly and provide welcome additions to it.

 

If you have the view that mods add so little of value, why are you here?

 

There are some things I'll agree on - that the base games are viable and playable without modding and that they are, essentially though not unequivocally, good games. But people love to play the games sometimes well over a decade later. That replayability does not come from the unedited game. That comes from mods. Mods take a limited experience, which all games are, and unlimit it. Suddenly, by adding mods to a game, each playthrough of Skyrim is meaningfully different, with elements I've never before encountered and new challenges to face. That can't be said without mods. Fallout's modding community has traditionally been a little less energized, but still the games benefit greatly on replayability from the effort of modders.

 

Without modding, Bethesda would still be a AAA developer releasing tentpole titles every few years, but as we see with other RPG developers, the natural life-cycle of a game usually runs its course by the time the next major installment in the franchise is released, if not sooner. I would argue that for all but die-hard fans, Dragon Age Inquisition has run it's course. By opening arms to modding, though, Bethesda's games are largely immune to this normal life-cycle, as they are constantly being infused with new content. New stories. New characters. New life.

 

You massively undervalue modding if you don't see how embracing it has made Bethesda a wholly unique and very influential company in the industry.

[Azkulomatic]

Forgive me. If I am corrected, under the law Bethesda has the legal right to all intellectual property that is released on their medium. Summarily to the the way Facebook now own your personal pictures. I even herd of mod creators getting employed by gaming companies. If you watch these creators on you tube, they love making games that they would even enjoy. They are a business that has a focus on people which is what makes them so successful. If we are lucky this will correlate to Beth.net.

There is no proof that Beth.net is going to be bad or good. In fact it is the first time I have ever herd of modding coming to consoles. That is an amazingly big deal. It is 100% necessary for Bethesda to create a new site for because of the cost of the the rights to use the source code for the Xbox. If a site like nexus had the ability to reach the Console community I'm sure they would have already. I have herd of some people uploading peoples work without their permission onto Beth.net. The next couple of months even years will show the success or failure of the Beth.net. and their ability to handle these kind of issues.

 

Lets make the assumption that even if Beth.net intentions are completely evil and desire to take over modding and charge money for the mods. Mod creators would just go back to or create another site if they felt wronged or dishonored. It only takes a few of extraordinary individuals to change the cause of history. If Bethesda wrongs the people, people will fight back. In my humble opinion, this call for a boycott is to early. Give Beth.net more rope, if you don't give them enough rope how will they hang themselves?

[lelcat]

 

putting it into terms a 'title lady brain' could get.

That is something you interpreted into what I said. Not every man is out to belittle you when gender differences are used in an argument.

(I actually hate football)

 

 

And here's the kicker - I understand the theory of free markets a hell of a lot better than you do.

We are going to see about that.

 

 

 

And here's the kicker - I understand the theory of free markets a hell of a lot better than you do. My undergrad is in political theory. The ideas you've expressed show a very basic and sanitized understanding of market behavior that is absolutely unrealistic when human decision making is factored in. People do not always buy the objectively best product per the price, sometimes people buy absolute garbage for any number of reasons. Pretty packaging, distrust of reviewers, whimsy, misunderstanding... and that's not even factoring in the differences in tastes. Pepsi and Coke don't have to compete on price or quality because they appeal to different tastes (be they actual or cultural), and in modding the subjectivity of what is or isn't good is about a million times more complicated than that.

 

And sometimes, people will buy and support based on the sheer antithesis of reason. I used the "one extra apple" mod for Skyrim as an example before. That attracted so many purchasers because of it exemplifying the exact opposite of what the market dictates behavior ought to be. It was a choice grounded in whimsy and rebellion against rational self-interest. The Internet nurtures this sort of action by its nature. Because of that, even if all other things were equal, you still could not use market dynamics to predict an increase in mod quality. Because sometimes the worst of mods will be the highest of interest.

I counter you with everyone being responsible for their own money. If someone bought an apple in Skyrim because he wanted to make a statement, well then he got his moneys worth. As a consumer you can decide what mods you want to buy. And customer reviews do work in the real world. When buying computer hardware, consulting amazon reviews or dedicated hardware review sites one can make an informed decision on what to buy. And if a Hard drive has pretty packaging, but fails to deliver on performance, then it will be reflected in ratings.

 

Another analogy why the market works is the game market itself. Sure there are many quick cash-in mobile games that could be equalized to boob mods or apple mods. But why is it then that there is a vast and diverse amount of products despite that? Fallout4, COD, BF, Far Cry are all high profile franchises that take years to make. Why do these exist, when by your prediction, everyone would only bang out angry bird clones on mobile platforms?

 

 

Because there is a segment of the market that wants something else than apples and boob mods.

 

 

 

If you have the view that mods add so little of value, why are you here?

 

There are some things I'll agree on - that the base games are viable and playable without modding and that they are, essentially though not unequivocally, good games. But people love to play the games sometimes well over a decade later. That replayability does not come from the unedited game. That comes from mods. Mods take a limited experience, which all games are, and unlimit it. Suddenly, by adding mods to a game, each playthrough of Skyrim is meaningfully different, with elements I've never before encountered and new challenges to face. That can't be said without mods. Fallout's modding community has traditionally been a little less energized, but still the games benefit greatly on replayability from the effort of modders.

 

Without modding, Bethesda would still be a AAA developer releasing tentpole titles every few years, but as we see with other RPG developers, the natural life-cycle of a game usually runs its course by the time the next major installment in the franchise is released, if not sooner. I would argue that for all but die-hard fans, Dragon Age Inquisition has run it's course. By opening arms to modding, though, Bethesda's games are largely immune to this normal life-cycle, as they are constantly being infused with new content. New stories. New characters. New life.

 

You massively undervalue modding if you don't see how embracing it has made Bethesda a wholly unique and very influential company in the industry.

I spent stupid amounts of time working with the Creation Kit and I like doing it even with the promise of paid mods being a vague one. But the way mods are presented in modding communities combined with the hating on Bethesda adds very little value to the actual game developers who worked for years to create the game. Want to empirically test what I am saying? Download the Unreal Engine development kit, then start making a game. Then you will experience how much hard work Bethesda invested into the base game and how great it is that they share their tools with us. This game is years worth of development time, and we get access to play it and mod it for 60$.

And I think that gets forgotten too often among the bethesda haters.

Edited July 19, 2016 by lelcat