Elder Scrolls VI Workshop: What should change from Fallout 4

[CyrusAmell]

I can only assume that many on this forum have played Fallout 4 or are at-least familiar with Bethesda’s latest “innovation” within the game known as the Workshop Mode. For those unfamiliar, players where given the liberty to develop their own settlements and hangouts within a set area. The only restraints were their imagination and a ridiculously low “build limit” that constrained how much of anything the player could build (easily circumvented however). There were 25+ such areas across the map that the player could utilize for such projects and, while this sounds cool, the system had a great many drawbacks.

 

Negatives:

 

- Settlers had limited AI, always got in the way, and were rather bland all around. Improvements to control them are still being made but such things should have been more thought out from the beginning. Recruiting them is also time intensive, requiring the player to set up a beacon and wait for them to trickle in. Sometimes, a settlement will never gain many settlers and others would gain a full amount quickly. Settlers also tended to glitch under or on-top of buildings for no apparent reason.

 

- The settlement attack system is excruciating to deal with, although it has been improved from earlier when such attacks gave players with 20+ settlements actual nightmares (more on that later). These attacks often made no sense, usually transporting attackers within the perimeter of a settlement and past where players would be expected to place defenses.

 

- Once built, changing a settlement is difficult because settlers often got in the way of new construction.

 

- Many elements from the settlement system went unexplained or were redundant, like how scavengers worked or what on Earth the “Happiness” rating was for.

 

- While trade networks (“Provisioners”) could be established to share raw resources, there was no shared inventory for weapons and armor. If you wanted to equip your settlers with armor and weapons you had to personally carry them across the map yourself from the settlement you stored them. The lack of a mass transit system should have been a no brainer, we had postboxes in Fallout: New Vegas that did this (an Obsidian game but still...).

 

- A little nitpick, but the ability for the player to build workshop items and buildings on their own without workers or help is simply lazy implementation. It’s instantaneous and has no depth or complexity. The whole system at best was simple and yet somehow made complicated at worst.

 

 

With that tirade out of the way I have a few suggestions for when Bethesda inevitably tries to put such a feature in the new Elder Scrolls game. My primary theory is that it would be best if Bethesda combined what worked in Elder Scrolls V Skyrim – Hearthfire with the innovations seen in the Fallout 4 Workshop Mode. In Hearthfire, your player manors were developed in set locations with additional features added to the households and their surroundings. While the player could not decide where such buildings were placed they could decide what buildings were placed.

 

Additionally, there should be fewer such locations and they should be granted to the player by a higher figure such as Jarls in Skyrim rather than by the inhabitants of these towns (fiefdoms if you would). Guilds might also serve such a purpose. Such landed privilege should also be somewhat difficult to acquire, ensuring that by the time the player acquires the fiefdom that he or she will have enough standing and coin to begin work on new projects.

 

The reason I advocate such is because the freedom and quantity of the Fallout 4 Workshop worked against the fun and quality of the system. As the player, I enjoyed being in charge of towns. As the player, I did not enjoy building these settlements by the dozens and wall by wall while trying to work around incontinent Settler AI, miniscule build limits and running myself ragged trying to scrounge up the needed resources. Basically, you were everyone’s *censored* rather than their boss.

 

Lastly, inhabitants should be given greater variety and should play a greater role in the construction of the settlement. The player should start off with five peasants who can be put to work making upgrades while the player is away. This would go on until the player has invested enough time, money and manpower to have a walled settlement with guard towers and a castle or fortified manor in the center. This would all be based on a grid layout with set locations for certain buildings that the player can personally choose and where new ones can simply be swapped in to replace old structures. Architectural flavors, such as style and stonework, should also be given as options for new buildings. Recruitment of settlement npcs should also be streamlined and more varied.

 

In short, it should be a system that avoids getting the player bogged down in the nitty gritty while allowing the player to feel as though he or she is putting their mark on the world.

 

What does everyone else think? What would you like to see in an Elder Scrolls VI Workshop?

Edited July 20, 2016 by CyrusAmell

[Rabbit1251]

If the next Skyrim follows Fallout's lead and implements workshops, settlers and such mind-numbing micromanagement then I will not be buying it. The two franchises are turning into the types of games that I do not enjoy playing. I play them for the adventure. I don't enjoy city building games. Fallout 4, in all likelihood, will be my last Bethesda game.

 

 

The Rabbit

[kevkiev]

Honestly, I don't give a crap about ES VI workshop. Just my opinion, but it seems to me that Bethesda put so much effort into the workshop aspect (notwithstanding its various drawbacks) that they ignored storyline and complexity of locations. I mean, it seems I spent 80% of my adventuring time doing simplistic fetchy quests at brain dead locations like Backstreet Apparel. I built up every settlement, but that whole scene got really old really fast. One of the main reasons that I bailed on FO4 completely and went back to Skyrim. Well, that and I got sick of the huge rendering problems the game had - gawd, I got so sick of visiting settlements, or even vanilla locations, and having to wait until the meshes/textures loaded. I still remember crossing a bridge at night (using a darker nights mod) and falling into the river 'cuz I couldn't see that the bridge's mesh hadn't loaded yet. (As well, the rendering thing is totally linked to FO4's inability to have functional weapons hotkeys. Your ability to switch weapons via hotkey diminished in direct proportion to the "busy-ness" (asset-wise) of your particular location. Got so sick of trying to switch weapons and being left holding a mitfull of air while getting hammered by a gang of high-powered super mutants.)

 

Hopefully, since they already have most of the tools for workshop mode already at their disposal, ES VI will see a return to interesting story lines and locations. And they can come up with an engine that can render better than in FO4. (Granted, I stopped playing quite a while back, but I kinda doubt they fixed the rendering thing since I did.) I really don't care what they do with workshop.

 

I know that's probably not the feedback you're looking for... my apologies for the semi-rant :tongue: (As you can tell, I was totally NOT impressed by FO4.)

 

EDIT: saw Rabbit 51's post after posting mine. Lol, essentially the same point without my run-on verbosity - what he said!

[CyrusAmell]

It's fine, I agree that the next Elder Scrolls game should put far less of a focus on settlements which is why I advocated fewer such locations.

 

What I was hoping for was an expanded Hearthfire system where you as the player had control over a walled settlement that could serve as the players' home. Unlike in Fallout 4 I do not want such a location to be handed out like candy but rather presented to the player as both a reward and a responsibility that they could deny without feeling at a loss. Whereas in Fallout 4 you could help out a group of farmers and, oh boy, you are now responsible for everything from defense to food. There was no "Sir/Ma'am, would like control over the settlement?" just "You can now use the Settlement Workshop." The system became ridiculously ponderous because of this. Coincidentally, this also goes for the faction system where I want to be able to decline being made leader of the FIghter's Guild if I don't want to deal with the responsibility (but that's a rant for another time).

 

A well to do player should not have anymore than 3 such locations at any one time due to faction conflicts and a normal player should be comfortable with one. We could utilize the steward system from Hearthfire to appoint companion characters to look out for the place while we were gone. The peasents could in turn make themselves useful gathering crops and maintaining the location as the player's subjects. Just enough of a system to feel like a lord, not enough work for it to be a bore.

 

I think the Witcher games from CD Red Projekt understood the value of saying no. In Witcher 1, the player character Geralt of Rivia could not say "no" to bedding many women to complete some quests, or at one point just hand out a chicken sandwich. But in Witcher 2 onward, Geralt could decline such a daliance and go on his way. Similarily, I want to be able to say no in an Elder Scrolls game to such responsibilities as land ownership and guild leadership.

 

Fallout 4 suffered from a lack of interesting locations because it seems half the map was given over to making arable locations for player settlements. I could certainly have done without so many settlements and would have liked more interesting vanilla towns.

Edited July 20, 2016 by CyrusAmell

[kevkiev]

I'd probably be okay with a choice of only a few locations, especially if I could turn them down (might be interesting to have one though. What you're describing sounds pretty ok, really, i.e. just a small aspect of the overall game.) After FO4, I'm really worried about how Bethesda is going to handle ES VI. Once it's released, I'm certainly not going to be in any hurry to buy it 'til I suss out what it's all about (unlike what I did with FO4).

 

On a sidenote, I really should try a Witcher game. Was watching a Witcher 3 gameplay video and it looked very, very cool.

[anbeegod]

You know what? Some kind of people are bound to blindly support Bethesda game no matter how crappy they are.

 

"Fallout 4's workshop isn't very Fallout"

 

"F*ck u, u get outta dis awsum game"

 

"Gosh I hope TESVI isn't going to be another Fallout 4"

 

"F*ck u, u be too low 4 Bethesda's games"

[CyrusAmell]

I'd probably be okay with a choice of only a few locations, especially if I could turn them down (might be interesting to have one though. What you're describing sounds pretty ok, really, i.e. just a small aspect of the overall game.) After FO4, I'm really worried about how Bethesda is going to handle ES VI. Once it's released, I'm certainly not going to be in any hurry to buy it 'til I suss out what it's all about (unlike what I did with FO4).

 

On a sidenote, I really should try a Witcher game. Was watching a Witcher 3 gameplay video and it looked very, very cool.

 

I have to agree that, while I have probably spent enough time playing Fallout 4 to justify buying it at full price along with the season pass I am not at all eager to repeat such an investment in the foreseeable future. Maybe I will, but only if I get a better income. Minus the stagnant rpg mechanic, I got mostly what I expected. But I will wait for the reviews of the next Elder Scrolls game, definitely.

 

I will say this though. If the workshop mode returns as shoddy as it was in Fallout 4 and all over the map then I am not touching the game. Period. I don't care how good the story is I will not once more run myself ragged erecting and protecting numerous shanty towns just so even more gormless npc can stand around doing jack diddly than at the start of the game.

 

As for the Witcher games, you will absolutely want to skip playing the first one (pick up a full play-through save on the Nexus for porting) and breeze through the second one on normal mode (still kinda tough). The second one can be picked up for $5 and it's a good game. The third one, however, is a great game and if you have the time and inclination I suggest picking it up later this year for the inevitable Black Friday specials on Steam.

Edited July 21, 2016 by CyrusAmell

[TheSpaceShuttleChallenger]

My main hope is that Elder Scrolls will continue to be a fantasy/adventure series and not a construction simulator/tower defense series.

[Lachdonin]

Just my opinion, but it seems to me that Bethesda put so much effort into the workshop aspect (notwithstanding its various drawbacks) that they ignored storyline and complexity of locations.

 

Have you LOOKED around those locations? Fallout 4's quests may have been lackluster, but it's locations and the stories they contain are top notch, far superior to anything they've done previously. From patients at an asylum struggling to survive after being abandoned when the bombs fell, to rivalries between different Raider gangs, to a pre-war cult to dark powers, the stories that you can pick up by paying attention in the various environments are fantastic. No, they aren't always shoved in your face with expositional dialogue or journals, but they're amazing, and i think Bethesda really out did themselves this time.

 

Anyway... This is something we talk about from time to time on the Bethesda forums, and there are a lot of issues with trying to implement a Settlement Workshop model in TES. First and foremost is the art side of things... The fact that structures in Tamriel aren't cobbled together from scrap, but are actual, dedicated and architecturally distinct structures makes placement and design more difficult. You can't slap together a bunch of 'rooms' and call it a house in the same way you can in the post apocalyptic wastes of America. This has been handled in the past by Bethesda (before Modders ever tried their hand at it) and you could see a more structured approach to it, allowing you to place particular structures in particular places... but something quite as free-form as Fallout 4 isn't really appropriate for the world.

 

Volume is also an issue, as Tamriel is largely settled. It's not a ruined world picking up the pieces, it's an inhabited, almost industrialised world with people and cities having been present, and established, for thousands of years. Setting up shop isn't something that's as easily done in Tamriel as in Fallout, and in order to really make it appropriate, you'd probably be looking at far fewer locations. One or two major settlements, for instance (previously having been ruined, like was the original intent for Helgen and Kvatch) would be best. Other, minor options include some attachment to factions, allowing you to renovate and redecorate Guild Halls and maybe even a faction Stronghold of some sort, but that depends on the setting...

 

The main advantage to the Workshop model in TES, however, is in decoration. Being able to place and manipulate otherwise static objects within your personal space is something that modders have worked on with TES since Morrowind, and implementing it into the base game probably the biggest step forward Bethesda has made in player housing since the House Strongholds. There are of course engine tweaks to be made to better handle placing non-static objects in the world, to keep all your cabbages from exploding all over the room, but whatever...

 

There is a lot of potential for a Workshop-like model in TES, but in a far more focused way. Tying it into faction management and a dynamic economy also offers a great deal of options for what you want to do and how you want to do it. It's a system which currently exists in something of a 'proof of concept' phase, but definitely deserves attention.

 

So long as that attention doesn't mean more generic NPCs with no life. This is TES, not The Witcher, we should see NPCs with at least superficial identities, not cardboard cutouts that are just there to take up space.

[kevkiev]

 

Just my opinion, but it seems to me that Bethesda put so much effort into the workshop aspect (notwithstanding its various drawbacks) that they ignored storyline and complexity of locations.

 

Have you LOOKED around those locations? Fallout 4's quests may have been lackluster, but it's locations and the stories they contain are top notch, far superior to anything they've done previously. From patients at an asylum struggling to survive after being abandoned when the bombs fell, to rivalries between different Raider gangs, to a pre-war cult to dark powers, the stories that you can pick up by paying attention in the various environments are fantastic. No, they aren't always shoved in your face with expositional dialogue or journals, but they're amazing, and i think Bethesda really out did themselves this time.

 

 

Lol, yes I LOOKED around those locations. Multiple times each, and it didn't take very long either. And I don't need a story "shoved in my face" to appreciate it. Gawd, yours is so similar to most of the criticisms I've read from peeps who can't stand it when others didn't share their high opinion of FO4 - there must be something wrong with them or their gameplay. Gimme a break. To repeat my opinion over again - overall, Fallout 4's locations and storlines were lackluster. In FO3, FONV and Skyrim, so often I'd find myself exclaiming "this is so cool!" in regards to both locations and stories. I did say that with the glowing sea, and maybe a couple of the other locations were ok but hardly any of the FO4 storylines really drew me in like in the previous 3 Bethesda games. (The middle one really being Obsidian.)

 

There were a lot of positives, mind you. For a couple examples, Bethesda took a huge leap forward in companion management, and companion and general NPC AI was also hugely improved. In the end, though, I thought FO4 ended up in large part striving to be a militarized version of the SIMS. I hope to goodness that ES VI takes a different route.