Did you kill Paarthurnax?

[Nudedragon]

I did, because the blades are right, no action today absolves your mistakes yesterday. A rapist who donates to charity still belongs in prison, and a genocidal monster is that much worse. I would have waited until after Alduins defeat though.

[Cobwebmaster]

Helghost's argument for or against killing Paarthurnax I believe is flawed for various reasons some of which I will set out here. Firstly in roleplay as I am the dragonborn I will make the decisions about who to slay not the Blades. The Blades have a much distorted view of their own importance and purpose- distorted because largely only fragments of their lore have come down to them and they are fond (well Delphine certainly is) of making rash judgements based on the flimsiest of evidence. I don't believe it is my duty to pass judgement on anyone or anything for their past actions. Those actions should be left where they are - in the past. Besides the dragons are my kin and I take the view that I am not brought into Skyrim to slay all of them. When the greybeards tell me of a word, if where I go there is a dragon guarding it who wishes to challenge me then that's their look out. Also when a Jarl puts a bounty on one for destroying farms, buildings citizens then that threat needs to be nullified. I have however been brought into Skyrim as the balance to Alduin's threat and purpose. That is my first and only priority . Sod the civil war not interested. Not interested in bloodying the Thalmor's nose either (any more than I need to) Paarthurnax is an ally in this fight and I do not betray Allies. I'm certainly not going to help the blades build a private army so they don't get my followers and housecarl(s). I don't need the Blades to defeat Alduin. The blades or the pitiful remains of them are still gnawing on the bones of their old plots to wipe out/seek revenge on the Thalmor and threats to Tamriel. That was never their duty they just took it upon themselves at some point. It is clear that previous Dragonborn never really trusted them to do anything but act as their personal bodyguards and they failed dismally at even doing that in Oblivion! Esbern's academia is useful from a historical perspective but that is as far as it goes

Paarthurnax may become a problem for Skyrim as is General Tullius, and Ulfric the arse. But they are for another day not this one in the quest to defeat Alduin

Sorry Nudedragon no action today? I as the dragonborn am not around to correct someone else's perceived mistakes, and I'm certainly not going to get involved in leading a crusade - there's two of them already going on in Skyrim led by Ulfric and Tullius. The only thing I would say is that the three great Nord Heroes who sent Alduin into the Teed Akhran (The time wound)? saw no reason to kill him and they had far more reason than modern day Nords (or bretons) so why should I? How long does one have to carry an imaginary grudge? forever? Btw the Blades knew nothing about this at all only what they've gleaned from books and scrolls (incomplete records).

The Greybeards show perhaps a similary narrow minded view of the world through their own outlook, but they are not aggressive and therefore not a threat . On the contrary they possess much wisdom (if it is to your taste ) and they show no inclination to go forth as crusaders to convert the world to their beliefs by using words of power to repress or overcome opposition to their will

All the reasons I have given are one's from a role play perspective using a neutral approach. Of course the other side of Skyrim is that you can kill pretty much whatever and whoever you like but there are consequences

[MidbossVyers]

I did, because the blades are right, no action today absolves your mistakes yesterday. A rapist who donates to cherity still belongs in prison, and a genocidal monster is that much worse. I would have waited until after Alduins defeat though.

So basically, what you're saying is that "don't do bad things, but if you do, don't stop" because as soon as you do, all the people you screwed over before will come after you? The ancient Chinese Emperors' logic of ending a condemned man's bloodline to minimize the chance of revenge. Also, in terms of your rapist analogy, does that mean he should also kill his victims to reduce the chance of being identified? Well, not necessarily, as there was an ancient Greek or Roman (I honestly forget) story where 2 rapists cut off the tongue and hands of their victim so that she would not be able to ID them. My personal logic is "Would humanity be rid of Alduin, if not for Paarthurnax? No. Then Paarthurnax deserves to live". Heck, if Voldemort and the Evil Queen mutilated the corpses of their nemeses just like the evil of olde, they would not need to worry about any chance of hero's epic revival.

Edited June 18, 2013 by MidbossVyers

[TheVampireDante]

Twice - once was just part of a characters backstory catching up to them - they were a reanimated warrior from the Dragon Wars, still with an ingrained hatred of all Dragons.

 

Second time was just because that character was bent on destroying everything after partially consuming Alduin's soul (roleplayed aspect).

 

Other than that I just leave him alone when done with events involving him.

[frank lee]

As I said about 30 pages ago, I'm not killing him because the Blades want me to. Since then I installed a mod that allows me to shout Delphine down (if you'll excuse the pun) but even in the mod there is no option for pointing out that should Paarthunax get out of line - well, it would be the last thing he did because he's not nearly as powerful as Alduin and the Dragon-born put an end to him.

 

All of the mods -I belive there is more than one- to do this, rely on telling the Blades to cool it and I haven't found one that is properly voiced. . . So, anyone think we could have a whip-round and raise the cash to approch Joan Allen or her agents and ask them to record a few more lines of 'Delphine'? It couldn't take more than a couple of hours of her valuable time, surely given the interest we could afford that between us. Maybe get some backing from Bethesta's publicity people etc.

 

This particular issue is one of the biggest dropped balls in the whole game for me, more profound than the mess they made of the civil war because Paarthunax embodies redemption, the idea that mistakes can be rectified and the possibility of attonement from guilt is the optomistic outlook. The understanding of this is what makes Paartunax one of the most truly human characters in the whole damned game.

 

It would be a real 'Firefly-Serenity' thing is we could pull it off and get the story fixed wouldn't it. . .

[Simniac]

No. He may have done some terrible things in the past being the right-hand of Alduin, but he earned his pardon by helping the heroes of ancient times take Alduin down, meditating for centuries trying to overcome his evil nature and helping the dragonborn take Alduin down again. I disagree with Delphine on this, overthrowing Alduin to try to right past the wrongs he did in the past does not make him worse imo! We all make mistakes.

[Indigoblade]

Before Creation Kit: I wanted to see what loot he had

 

After Creation Kit: I hoped the CK was lying about what loot he had I wanted to test it

[Karkashan]

My character was the child of a former Blade, so there wasn't really any doubt in my mind to kill Paarthurnax whatsoever.

[Nudedragon]

So basically, what you're saying is that "don't do bad things, but if you do, don't stop" because as soon as you do, all the people you screwed over before will come after you? The ancient Chinese Emperors' logic of ending a condemned man's bloodline to minimize the chance of revenge.

 

No, you're saying that. I said that if you don't rob today, you're still responsible for the theft you committed yesterday. The 'ancient Chinese Emperors' logic' was logical, but lacked morality. If you're trying to say that ol' parthy is just an innocent family member, you're mistaken. He was just as vicious as any other dragon during their original reign of terror: he's not being punished for alduins crimes, he's being punished for his own.

 

Also, in terms of your rapist analogy, does that mean he should also kill his victims to reduce the chance of being identified? Well, not necessarily, as there was an ancient Greek or Roman (I honestly forget) story where 2 rapists cut off the tongue and hands of their victim so that she would not be able to ID them. My personal logic is "Would humanity be rid of Alduin, if not for Paarthurnax? No. Then Paarthurnax deserves to live". Heck, if Voldemort and the Evil Queen mutilated the corpses of their nemeses just like the evil of olde, they would not need to worry about any chance of hero's epic revival.

 

Actually, Voldemort's victims were usually killed at their homes. He also rarely mass killed - he was up close and personal. The bodies would be identifiable even if they were unrecognizable. Your personal logic is flawed: the point isn't to punish Alduin by dealing with Paarthurnax, the point is to punish Ol' Paarthy for the crimes he commit. Just as imprisoning a 'Death Dealer' isn't about punishing modly voldy, it's about exacting justice on the henchman, or henchwoman.

 

A criminal might resort to extreme measures when avoiding punishment, but you don't just leave them unpunished, in fear of that possibility. Furthermore, only a sociopath thinks: I might be reprimanded for misbehavior, I'd better do something even worse. It's pathological to think, "I'm going to be punished for hurting that person, anyway, so I might as well hurt more people while I can." While there are sociopaths in the world, we don't just let them do as they please, and we don't let them walk free just because they vow not to hurt anyone again.

 

That said, I don't think Paarthurnax is a sociopath. I think you are. You're the one talking about executing entire families for the crime of an individual, killing rape victims to prevent them from identifying the perpetrator, and damaging post-murder corpses until they're unrecognizable. It is you who took the statement, "criminals should be held responsible for their crimes," to mean that criminals should up their ante. Get professional help.

[MidbossVyers]

No, you're saying that people should try to do good things no matter what even if it means their death. I'm saying people should follow the natural path of self-preservation. It's like that episode in Stargate: Atlantis where the Atlantis crew was helped by a Replicator named Ava Dixon. Her reward? Destruction of her body while her mind was preserved in virtual reality. All because of the nature of Replicators as a "security risk", just as you are judging Paarthurnax because of his nature as a dragon.

Edited July 15, 2013 by MidbossVyers