On the Infinite Stupidity in Riften

[Sfumato]

Yeah. So. First thing someone does in Riften is talk to me about how the Black-Briars are connected with the Thieves Guild. I'm wondering why he tells this information to every stranger that walks into the town, especially since it's not something that you'd want the Jarl to learn about. I go talk to the Jarl, who tells me that the Black-Briars are 'investigating' the Thieves Guild, and I wonder why I can't tell her that they aren't. I see if I need proof, and break into the Black Briar's house to get those letters off her desk, which I think is proof. Nope, still can't tell her about the corruption right under her nose. So, instead I decide to see if I can talk to Maven about it, get a confession. Well, it wasn't hard, since she has only one conversation option and in that she admits without a second thought that she has connections to both the Thieves Guild AND the Dark Brotherhood.

 

Imagine some stranger walking up to you in the street to talk, and you were the top man of a criminal organization that specialized in assassinating people, or someone who hired them frequently. Would you tell that stranger without getting to know them, first?

 

Most likely, you wouldn't tell them at all. But the NPCs in Riften seem to think it fitting to tell everyone that they're evil people, yet you don't get any options to get them arrested. No quests to root out the Thieves Guild or clear Riften of it's corruption. This is a huge immersion breaker.

[Lachdonin]

The Riften Jarl is an idiot. Not only that, shes the image of a piss poor ruler. I doubt she'd even clue in to the fact that the Black Briar's were related to the Theives Guild if Maiven herself told her. I think this represents the inherent character of Riften. That is, everyone knows who the Theives Guild members are, and who pulls the strings, but the Jarl is too much of a self important bint to pay attention, which means the criminals technicly run the city.The criminals can make their alegiences known because they own the guards, and can use the knowlege to maintain power through fear.

[Stratomunchkin]

Welcome to Skyrim's moronic and incredibly limited conversation system. There's hardly anything logical in the damn thing so far. You can't do a damn thing about the situation in Riften, just as you can't really influence the situation anywhere else, regardless of whether you're Tharn, Dovaakhin or the friggin' Easterbunny.

[Lachdonin]

Welcome to Skyrim's moronic and incredibly limited conversation system. There's hardly anything logical in the damn thing so far. You can't do a damn thing about the situation in Riften, just as you can't really influence the situation anywhere else, regardless of whether you're Tharn, Dovaakhin or the friggin' Easterbunny.

 

 

And whats more limited aboutt he conversational system in Skyrim compared to.. Say... Dragon Age. Or Mass Effect. Or Fallout. Or Neverwinter Nights. Or any of a dozen other RPG's out there. There are technical limitations to confront, particularly when you have to script responces. You want a fluid, realistic and non-moronic conversation system, you go program a fully reactive AI. Acomplish that, and you'll have a job with any gaming company you want.

 

Until then, this is the best type of system thats available, and it's pretty damn good.

[Sfumato]

I don't recall Mass Effect having this size of immersion-breaking fault, though. Sure, there were problems with the conversational system in Mass Effect, but not to this scale. Each quest had a full spectrum of how to deal with it, and you didn't have to scream at your computer screen "BUT I HAVE PROOF! I HAVE IT ALREADY!" This just seems like a huge oversight, and it does remain that people don't just tell other people how powerful they are in the criminal underworld, even if they have their hands in the pockets of the government and police.

[Lachdonin]

I had dozens, if not scores of moments in Mass Effect where i knew a better way to handle a conversation than the options they gave me. Maybe thats just my diolomatic personality, but i encounter it in every game, so i suppose i'm more lenient about it in games than other people are.

 

My point about it building the atmosphere of Riften stands however. The fact that the Jarl is completely oblivious to something everyone else knows reinforces the fact that shes a terrible leader. Shes ike the Anne Bolynne of TES (The whole french revolution story has been extremely twisted, mind you, and Anne was far more awair of the plight of the people than the story lets on. She was also trying her damnedest to help, but got beheaded anyway)

[Sfumato]

Well. I suppose your right. I just hope there are mods out soon that help fix and correct these issues with the inability to influence politics outside of fighting for the Imperials or Stormcloaks. For now, I'll just kill the Thieves Guild and Black Briars and imagine the guards did it for resisting arrest.

[Marcvss]

I had dozens, if not scores of moments in Mass Effect where i knew a better way to handle a conversation than the options they gave me. Maybe thats just my diolomatic personality, but i encounter it in every game, so i suppose i'm more lenient about it in games than other people are.

 

 

True to a point.

 

Ofcourse the conversations in every RPG are limited to a certain degree.

 

However... In eg DA, ME, TW etc etc they make resonable sense...

 

The whole system in Skyrim is shite beyond belief cause nothing makes sense. It's completely build up to force info on you and thats it.

[AbleGnome]

There are two huge flaws in this game. And it is typical for all IT and graphic design groups. They have no respect for the story, for the human conversation. They think it is all about the effects and dazzling graphics.

 

Skyrim suffers from scattered good/bad writing. Some writers are great, some are really, really terrible. And there doesn't appear to be any consistent, in-depth editorial and creative oversight to the writing or the story cohesion.

 

It isn't TERRIBLE...I love a lot of it....but it is very sloppy and unprofessional in some places. The voice actors are GREAT and they save a lot of the bad writing.

 

Example: The Myst developers at Cyan had it dead-on right: The games are about the story, about the people, about the history, about the conflict and challenges. After that, let's see if we can rise to the challenge and create the visuals to amplify the drama. Fallout 3 and New Vegas had it right and personal and human with their lonesome, desperate heroes and villains who walked the line between right and wrong.

 

All that said....I love this game. It is a grown-up version of Oblivion and Nehrim. It rocks. I can't WAIT to see what the god-like modders will bestow upon us. Thank you in advance!!!

[Technogran]

There are two huge flaws in this game. And it is typical for all IT and graphic design groups. They have no respect for the story, for the human conversation. They think it is all about the effects and dazzling graphics.

 

Skyrim suffers from scattered good/bad writing. Some writers are great, some are really, really terrible. And there doesn't appear to be any consistent, in-depth editorial and creative oversight to the writing or the story cohesion.

 

It isn't TERRIBLE...I love a lot of it....but it is very sloppy and unprofessional in some places. The voice actors are GREAT and they save a lot of the bad writing.

 

Example: The Myst developers at Cyan had it dead-on right: The games are about the story, about the people, about the history, about the conflict and challenges. After that, let's see if we can rise to the challenge and create the visuals to amplify the drama. Fallout 3 and New Vegas had it right and personal and human with their lonesome, desperate heroes and villains who walked the line between right and wrong.

 

All that said....I love this game. It is a grown-up version of Oblivion and Nehrim. It rocks. I can't WAIT to see what the god-like modders will bestow upon us. Thank you in advance!!!

 

 

I totally agree with you about the story writers at Cyan for the Myst games. If I could visit Bethesda and talk to the guys, I would encourage them to play all of the Myst games (if they haven't already done so that is!) to see how to do it. Get the story right (and its various conclusions if it branches or has choices) and then build everything else around it.