Skyrim isn't dumbed down. Purists are.

[JimboUK]

I like the environment, I thought it was going to get old fast but it hasn't. That said reaching places on top of mountains can be a pain in the rear end, oh what wouldn't I give for levitation.

 

 

What I think we need Jim, is to be able to call on our friendly dragons, (either Parth or the other feller), for a lift up the cliffs.

 

Is Saden Storm (chap that did the dragon mount for Oblivion) still active on the forums ?

 

That would be good, I dare say someone will mod in rideable dragons, they certainly would make getting around a lot easier.

[macole]

Levitation would be highly overuseable and easymode. Easy transport, easy escape from fights, easy and too accessible. Unless there were a lot of limitations.

It'd end up going either one of two ways: either Levitation only works while cast, like See Life, whereby running out of Magicka would end the effect, or it'd have a set duration, probably one where, without significant Magicka regen, it'd be impossible to completely recuperate the Magicka used to cast the spell. Either way, it's not "easymode", as you put it. It essentially limits itself.

Isn't that the way levitation worked before Oblivion as a timed duration spell. You rose up and hovered, movement was slow and limited and when time ran out if you weren't careful you fell to your death. Been so long since I played Morrowind or Daggerfall but that is the way I remember it. Levitation and telekinesis got a lot of loot. Long for the days when mages ruled the land. Now mages have become poor reflections of their former glory. Can't craft a proper spell anymore let alone hover above a battle field throwing lightning and fireballs at the hapless foot bound. Wasn't easy though, hovering in the air you become an easy target for every bowman on the block.

[Shantih]

It's like the ES I know with some new furniture, and frankly, I like it a lot. It could have done better, but to say it's dumbed-down as compared to approached differently seems a little off.

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head with this sentence.

 

Gamers are creatures of habit and it's understandable that the ones who loved Oblivion have a hard time adjusting to Skyrim. After all you can't turn your back on years of coping with all the things that Oblivion did right and all the things it did wrong without some sort of nostalgia (unless of course you think that Oblivion was a deeply flawed game that took 300 mods in order to be enjoyable).

 

I won't argue with people who miss all the counterintuitive number crunching. I've made my case pages ago. Stats and skills are almost interchangeable in Oblivion and IMO getting rid of stats was the most logical move in order to make the skill and levelling system more rational.

 

Morrowind has an atmosphere that I enjoyed and I would like to play it again some day but personally I can see no reason to actually go back and play Oblivion.

 

I can't see how having better writing and dialogues can possibly mean that Skyrim is dumbed down. Skyrim doesn't have an absurd speechcraft wheel that keeps reminding me of playing Simon in the 80s and as far as I'm concerned that is definitely an improvement (and a clear example that taking things out from a game is not necessarily a bad thing).

 

Last but not least, when it comes to buffing wimpy dragons or putting more (not needed) stats into the game we will have mods to do that whereas modding writing and dialogue is not something that can be done (especially nowadays with games that are fully voiced).

[HaikenEdge]

I can't see how having better writing and dialogues can possibly mean that Skyrim is dumbed down. Skyrim doesn't have an absurd speechcraft wheel that keeps reminding me of playing Simon in the 80s and as far as I'm concerned that is definitely an improvement (and a clear example that taking things out from a game is not necessarily a bad thing).

 

Last but not least, when it comes to buffing wimpy dragons or putting more (not needed) stats into the game we will have mods to do that whereas modding writing and dialogue is not something that can be done (especially nowadays with games that are fully voiced).

I'm not sure exactly where you're getting "better writing and dialogues" from; to me, the writing is still horrid, full of railroading and and nonsensical choices from a roleplaying perspective, and dialogue is just as stilted as before, even if the voice actors are better now than before.

 

As for saying "mods will fix everything", surely a game shouldn't need mods to fix anything when it comes out of the box. I mean, surely the entire point of buying a game is, you know, to play the game? Saying modders can fix everything shouldn't absolve a game of its flaws; if anything, it should further weigh on the game, because, if a third party can fix such flaws, then surely the developers should have taken their time to do the same bloody thing.

 

Regarding "writing and dialogue is not something that can be done (especially nowadays with games that are fully voiced).", I'd have to disagree. All it takes is a group of dedicated voice talent and skilled writers, which the internet is not lacking; the only problem is, most people appear to be too self-conscious to donate their voice towards a mod, which seems to be the only reason why most mods with new quests aren't voiced.

[hymhym]

 

I won't argue with people who miss all the counterintuitive number crunching. I've made my case pages ago. Stats and skills are almost interchangeable in Oblivion and IMO getting rid of stats was the most logical move in order to make the skill and levelling system more rational.

 

Yet you keep calling it "counterintuitive number crunching" and thus keep up a belligerent stance. Seriously, I get it, you don't find stats useful in your portrayal of your character. Fine, I believe you, and you are totally free to think so. But why, why can't you accept that some of us do find the numbers meaningful, and do utilize them in the portrayal of our characters,.

 

Furthermore, stats and skills were not interchangeable in Oblivion. They were used differently by the game mechanics. Where Oblivion (and Morrowind too) dropped the ball was in the way it handled stat increase and the way it presented the information. (Also the weight of stats versus skills was bit odd too)But the "logical" way to fix these issues is not to axe them, but to make their meaning clearer and make the leveling process less annoying.

 

I'm not saying that cutting them from Skyrim was a bad thing, it's just a thing. Whether it's good or not is a matter of personal opinion. Your side of that divide got what you wanted so rejoice, we who are on the losing side, do have a right to voice our disappointment on the issue.

 

That is the question of stats and roleplaying - the other topic tied to the axing of stats is how it will influence modding. The simple fact is, that the loss of stats is a diminished of the system, anyone who argues otherwise is blind to the fact. In previous titles, you had the option to tie new mechanics to stats. In Skyrim you can't , since there are no stats. Will the perk system (which is an enrichment of the system) prove versatile enough to compensate this loss? I don't know. Once the editor is out it is possible to check this. Until then, it's just pointless speculation. What is clear, is that the old ways of accomplish things is no longer possible.

 

Let's have a simple though experiment on the issues - let's take the most common stat in all systems, and the one most people have the least trouble in understanding: Strength. And let's take the most well known iconic character based on that stat: Hulk.

 

If I wanted to do a Hulk mod in Oblivion, all I'd need is to make a STR enhancement effect that kicks in when your character is hulkified. This in turn will automatically translate as a boost in all relevant attributes. It will make him a better fighter, he will have an increased carrying capacity since that is tied to strength and so on.

 

I'm not saying that this is an ideal solution, since the engine of Oblivion is really not geared to handle hulk type characters. You'd have to also use an uncapper or some sort, and boost your hulkified characters STR to 250 to achieve a proper Hulk form. But the point is that it is possible and doesn't require ridiculous amounts of scripting or jumping through hoops, since the base engine has an inbuilt STR function.

 

To round up the Hulk mod, I'd also have to add some scripts, namely a system to track your anger, and to swap your characters body meshes with suitable hulk meshes, and also change your character scale to say 1.5. I'd also boost Acrobatics by about 500, to give you Hulks trademark leaps, and I wouldn't even need an uncapper for that, since Acrobatics is already uncapped in vanilla Oblivion.

 

Do note, that using STR for the hulk effect, will also mean that the character is better in any other activity that some other mod introduces that uses STR as it's base source. For example, OOO has a mechanism for bashing locks, which is based on the characters STR stat. Our hulkified character is thus atuoamtically, and quite logically, better in this new activity as well.

 

As to how to do Hulk in Skyrim? I don't know. But you cant' do it the way you can do it in Oblivion.

Edited November 27, 2011 by hymhym

[AbleGnome]

Well, mods should certainly extend the life of Skyrim for PC gamers. We (PC gamers) can approach a game like this a bit more optimistically than console gamers. Think that's true? We can go in knowing that flaws can be fixed or worked around, new content will be available, etc., etc. Some Oblivion mods refreshed my interest in the game, and epic mods like Nehrim actually brought the game to a whole new and improved level that was very exciting. (Are there any German folks out there who played the German-only remake of Morrowind?)

 

Developers can dumb the game down for me, as long as they aren't dumber than I am to begin with, or simply do not understand the needs of the gamers who are fans of TES.

Edited November 27, 2011 by AbleGnome

[Shantih]

I'm not sure exactly where you're getting "better writing and dialogues" from; to me, the writing is still horrid, full of railroading and and nonsensical choices from a roleplaying perspective, and dialogue is just as stilted as before, even if the voice actors are better now than before.

 

As for saying "mods will fix everything", surely a game shouldn't need mods to fix anything when it comes out of the box. I mean, surely the entire point of buying a game is, you know, to play the game? Saying modders can fix everything shouldn't absolve a game of its flaws; if anything, it should further weigh on the game, because, if a third party can fix such flaws, then surely the developers should have taken their time to do the same bloody thing.

 

Regarding "writing and dialogue is not something that can be done (especially nowadays with games that are fully voiced).", I'd have to disagree. All it takes is a group of dedicated voice talent and skilled writers, which the internet is not lacking; the only problem is, most people appear to be too self-conscious to donate their voice towards a mod, which seems to be the only reason why most mods with new quests aren't voiced.

 

The easy part is talking about mods, making them is the hard part.

 

I've looked all over the Nexus and I haven't seen one file with your name on it. I'm not sure you know what it entails to make a big mod especially a quest mod or one with dialogues. I don't know if you've ever tried to put a script together and get it to work. There is nothing wrong with that of course but if you've never done any of these things you shouldn't say modding dialogues is easy. Give it a try first... Especially since we don't even know what the Creation Kit will be like or if it will support lip files (try making new dialogues without these, that's the actual reason why mods for Fallout 3 and FNV don't always have voicing because modders still have to use the Oblivion construction set to get lip files and that's a very boring and time consuming process).

 

Modding dialogues in an existing game without the modded content standing out and breaking immersion is something that takes both talent and work (and proper recording equipment). Pretending otherwise is not only misguided but simply wrong -unless of course I'm wrong and you're so talented that you can put to shame all the great modders and voice actors who have contributed to the making of the best quest mods here on the Nexus.

 

Regarding the other point in your post, I don't think anyone can seriously claim that Oblivion has better writing. By the way I never said Skyrim was perfect but it's definitely better. Don't try to distort what I post please.

 

Also mods will be made and used to improve the gameplay and enjoyment of the game. "Fixing" is a term that is better suited to patches for things that don't work the way they should (scripts that don't trigger, missing lines or conditions, things like that). "Fixing" original design choices because you don't like them is simply modding. There is a huge difference between a fix and a mod. Most people use both terms as if they are interchangeable. Whether you like the original design of the game or not is not the point, a "fix" is only a "fix" it it makes the game work as originally intended by the devs. Sorry if I'm ranting about fixes but I find the loose use of the term "fix" annoying. :happy:

 

 

I won't argue with people who miss all the counterintuitive number crunching. I've made my case pages ago. Stats and skills are almost interchangeable in Oblivion and IMO getting rid of stats was the most logical move in order to make the skill and levelling system more rational.

 

Yet you keep calling it "counterintuitive number crunching" and thus keep up a belligerent stance. Seriously, I get it, you don't find stats useful in your portrayal of your character. Fine, I believe you, and you are totally free to think so. But why, why can't you accept that some of us do find the numbers meaningful, and do utilize them in the portrayal of our characters,.

 

I'm calling the Oblivion that because it is all about counterintuitive number crunching. I'm going to explain why I believe it is so:

 

=> Powergaming can't be avoided in Oblivion. If you don't plan your build you won't be able to compete with NPCs because of the level scaling.

 

=> Therefore to be able to compete with NPCs you have to max out your stats and that is done by getting three +5s at level ups.

 

=> To get the +5s you need to control when your character is going to level up. If you don't you will lose points.

 

=> To control when you're getting levels you have to select main skills for your custom class and make sure these skills won't level up by accident. To make sure of that you will have to choose skills that you won't use or skills that you can control (preferably no passive skills).

 

=> Since Endurance has a direct bearing on the number of hit points and since getting bonuses in Endurance is not retroactive you have to increase Endurance first if you don't want to lose hit points in the long run and want your character to be more resilient therefore you have to make sure that you're going to use skills that increase Endurance (presumably as a consequence spending some time repairing items to get the +5 at your next level up).

 

Basically in order to have a viable character in Oblivion you have to select skills that you won't use as main skills, keep track of the number of skills you've increased and purposefully use skills that are linked to the stat that you want to increase. By the way, when I say keep track I mean just that. Keeping a piece of paper tucked under the keyboard to write down which skills have increased since the last level is not that uncommon for dedicated Oblivion players (I know I did). If you've never done that then perhaps you've been using a mod or you've been blessed with a perfect memory.

 

Are you seeing a pattern yet or do I have to go on?

 

Compare that system to the one in Skyrim and tell me which one is more intuitive /feels more natural.

 

In Skyrim you may mess up your character if you spend most of your time not fighting and keep doing the same thing (like spending all your time at the forge farming levels while not building any fighting skills). That however shouldn't happen if you don't go out of your way to get levels as fast as possible.

 

You don't need to plan your build if you don't want to. In fact you can try out different things before investing in a skill tree so your character build is not necessarily planned beforehand, it is developed throughout the game by the choices you make.

 

The skills you improve depend on your actual gameplay, the game doesn't force you to train certain skills so you won't miss out on the stats your build requires.

 

Oblivion is not about playing a role, it's about playing a game. It's not about developing a character, it's about playing out a character build. There is a difference and if what you want is indeed to portray a character then you're kidding yourself if you think Oblivion is the better game.

 

I don't mean to be "belligerent" I certainly don't expect you to agree with me but I stand by what I've posted. My opinion is that stats, skills and levels in Oblivion are all about counterintuitive number crunching. I've stated my reasons, you're free to disregard them or ignore them if you want to. No biggie.

 

As to how to do Hulk in Skyrim? I don't know. But you cant' do it the way you can do it in Oblivion.

 

If you thing that's a problem then that's why you're not a modder (yet).

 

The fact that you have to find different ways to do things is not a limitation. What worked with Fallout 3 mostly worked with FNV but some things were different and that never stopped modders from experimenting.

 

You have to think out of the box to make a mod. What if Skyrim doesn't work like Oblivion? It doesn't mean we won't be able to make a hulk mod. After all vanilla Skyrim already has werewolves so starting by looking at the way werewolves work is probably not a bad idea.

 

No need for stats when all the parameters are still in the game. You can't see them but there is no reason why weight, speed and damage can't be modded for the Hulk -not that different from werewolves only much stronger. Sometimes it's as easy as changing a simple multiplier. :thumbsup:

[HaikenEdge]

I'm not sure exactly where you're getting "better writing and dialogues" from; to me, the writing is still horrid, full of railroading and and nonsensical choices from a roleplaying perspective, and dialogue is just as stilted as before, even if the voice actors are better now than before.

 

As for saying "mods will fix everything", surely a game shouldn't need mods to fix anything when it comes out of the box. I mean, surely the entire point of buying a game is, you know, to play the game? Saying modders can fix everything shouldn't absolve a game of its flaws; if anything, it should further weigh on the game, because, if a third party can fix such flaws, then surely the developers should have taken their time to do the same bloody thing.

 

Regarding "writing and dialogue is not something that can be done (especially nowadays with games that are fully voiced).", I'd have to disagree. All it takes is a group of dedicated voice talent and skilled writers, which the internet is not lacking; the only problem is, most people appear to be too self-conscious to donate their voice towards a mod, which seems to be the only reason why most mods with new quests aren't voiced.

 

The easy part is talking about mods, making them is the hard part.

 

I've looked all over the Nexus and I haven't seen one file with your name on it. I'm not sure you know what it entails to make a big mod especially a quest mod or one with dialogues. I don't know if you've ever tried to put a script together and get it to work. There is nothing wrong with that of course but if you've never done any of these things you shouldn't say modding dialogues is easy. Give it a try first... Especially since we don't even know what the Creation Kit will be like or if it will support lip files (try making new dialogues without these, that's the actual reason why mods for Fallout 3 and FNV don't always have voicing because modders still have to use the Oblivion construction set to get lip files and that's a very boring and time consuming process).

 

Modding dialogues in an existing game without the modded content standing out and breaking immersion is something that takes both talent and work (and proper recording equipment). Pretending otherwise is not only misguided but simply wrong -unless of course I'm wrong and you're so talented that you can put to shame all the great modders and voice actors who have contributed to the making of the best quest mods here on the Nexus.

 

Regarding the other point in your post, I don't think anyone can seriously claim that Oblivion has better writing. By the way I never said Skyrim was perfect but it's definitely better. Don't try to distort what I post please.

 

Also mods will be made and used to improve the gameplay and enjoyment of the game. "Fixing" is a term that is better suited to patches for things that don't work the way they should (scripts that don't trigger, missing lines or conditions, things like that). "Fixing" original design choices because you don't like them is simply modding. There is a huge difference between a fix and a mod. Most people use both terms as if they are interchangeable. Whether you like the original design of the game or not is not the point, a "fix" is only a "fix" it it makes the game work as originally intended by the devs. Sorry if I'm ranting about fixes but I find the loose use of the term "fix" annoying. :happy:

You're right, I don't have any mods to my name on this site; this seems to be something you take exception to when I talk about modding in general. Nonetheless, even though I don't have mods up on this site, I've had experience in the toolkit starting from Morrowind and extending through Oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas, and based on those toolkits (and the similarity between the Creation and Gamebryo engines), I wouldn't be surprised if the dialogue trees used the same system; despite the superficial differences, dialogue paths feel practically the same in execution, and in those cases, it's not really that difficult in writing or coding in the dialogue. The difficulty usually stems from getting actual voice talent who will contribute to the mod without charging in the first place; I strongly believe that, if there were more voice talent who would work for free, many more mods would have spoken dialog, because past games within the series have shown that programming dialogue, though somewhat complex, isn't really that hard, if maybe somewhat tedious.

 

My argument isn't quality of writing for third-party mods; my argument is in the difficulty of creating voice-acted dialogue. You're creating a strawman argument; I never said that, just because it's not hard to get voice acting for dialog, it's easy to write actual dialog that doesn't contradict lore.

 

I never said Oblivion had better writing; I simply said the writing of Skyrim is no improvement.

 

I understand the difference between "fix" and "mod"; I just don't think the phrase "mods will fix X broken thing" (and I don't mean a design decision, but something like a legitimate bug, say, the custom race fix in Oblivion) shouldn't excuse the actual broken aspects of a game.

[hymhym]

I'm calling the Oblivion that because it is all about counterintuitive number crunching. I'm going to explain why I believe it is so:

 

snip!

 

Are you seeing a pattern yet or do I have to go on?

 

I will try this once more, and then I give up. You do not talk about Oblivion! You've been talking about roleplaying, and making sweeping generalization about how numbers and stats equal poor roleplaying, or how they jut get in the way and real roleplayers don't need them. That's what you have been ranting on several threads, several times. And that's what I am objecting to. And as have several others.

 

I personally have conceded on several occasions that the system that was in Oblivion was bad. I know that, that's why I don't use it. I had quite enough of it in Morrowind. And remember, back then we didn't have these handy nexus forums, nor all knowing wiki databases. I had to figure all that stat maximising out by myself. And I did figure it. It gave me some satisfaction at cracking the game back then, but even then I realized that it was ultimately a sucky system. So I didn't want to have to deal with it again, and I didn't. Totally replaced it in Oblivion.

 

But axing stats is not the same as fixing the system! I know it was bad in Oblivion, all I'm saying they could have fixed it, instead of cutting it.

 

Compare that system to the one in Skyrim and tell me which one is more intuitive /feels more natural.

 

Neither of course! One has a sucky system and the other doesn't have any. It's like asking which is a better car this broken down trabant or this brand new mountain bike. Well, if those are my options, then I must say that the stat system in Oblivion did indeed feel more like a stat system than the non-presensce in Skyrim.

 

Oblivion is not about playing a role, it's about playing a game. It's not about developing a character, it's about playing out a character build. There is a difference and if what you want is indeed to portray a character then you're kidding yourself if you think Oblivion is the better game.

 

Sez you! Well, I, and many others, roleplayed perfectly well in Oblivion. And by your limited scope of framing, I could just as well say that Skyrim is not a roleplaying game at all, but an escapist never never land where you, the player, can pretend to be a superman. Too bad I have been roleplaying my character for 140 hours now and am nowhere near finishing the main quest. Guess I've been too busy "gimping" myself with all that forging and smelting and not been fighting enough.

 

I don't mean to be "belligerent" I certainly don't expect you to agree with me but I stand by what I've posted. My opinion is that stats, skills and levels in Oblivion are all about counterintuitive number crunching. I've stated my reasons, you're free to disregard them or ignore them if you want to. No biggie.

 

Well, that's how you present your point of view. You say: My way is the bestest. In fact my way is the only way. Any other way is something else. I am the true herald of all that is roleplaying. And yes, of course I am exaggerating here - I do so to drive in the point. You could have just as well presented your point of view like this: "I personally think that the game benefits from ditching the stats. I always felt them to be artificial and couldn't connect with them. I find that I am having much easier time to define my character without their presence." To which I could have then said: "Really? I have always found stats to be extremely useful in forming my characters personality. And think their absence in Skyrim hinders my immersion. " To which you could then have then said "Really - funny that. Well to each their own." But instead you keep insisting that anyone who defends stats in a roleplaying game is not a roleplayer, but a power gamer, or something equally nonsensical.

 

For one last time - I get it. You felt a disconnect between the stats and your fantasy persona - I on the other hand can't get a good connection to my fantasy persona without stats. I have no trouble believing that the lack of stats helps you to roleplay better, why can't you believe that the presence of stats helps me to roleplay better?

 

The only thing I can't understand about your point of view is that how stats are somehow special - that stats are bad and nonsensical numbers. But skills are not, or stamina or hit points or your carry value and the numerous other numbers strewn all over the game. How come none of those hinder your roleplaying? How come none of them are "counterintuitive number crunching?" Ultimately they are just numerical statements about your characters prowess in some field of activity or some quality of being, and are all used in various formulas in the game. Honestly - you sound like you were just burned really bad buy the sucky leveling system for stats in Oblivion.

 

As to how to do Hulk in Skyrim? I don't know. But you cant' do it the way you can do it in Oblivion.

 

If you thing that's a problem then that's why you're not a modder (yet).

 

The fact that you have to find different ways to do things is not a limitation. What worked with Fallout 3 mostly worked with FNV but some things were different and that never stopped modders from experimenting.

 

You have to think out of the box to make a mod. What if Skyrim doesn't work like Oblivion? It doesn't mean we won't be able to make a hulk mod. After all vanilla Skyrim already has werewolves so starting by looking at the way werewolves work is probably not a bad idea.

 

No need for stats when all the parameters are still in the game. You can't see them but there is no reason why weight, speed and damage can't be modded for the Hulk -not that different from werewolves only much stronger. Sometimes it's as easy as changing a simple multiplier. :thumbsup:

 

Please don't start lecturing to me about modding. I realize that you don't know me, so you can't know anything about my modding skills. But seeing as this is a modding site, how about you give people the benefit of the doubt. As in - people who frequent a modding site probably know something about modding. I suppose I could start listing my resume on the subject, but that would be silly.And ultimately just me saying stuff about me, which is always a hollow argument on the Internet. So my policy is to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. And on that note - please do believe me when I say, that yes I am fairly well versed in the art of modding.

 

But that is besides the point, you seem to have missed the point about the hulk mod - of course it is possible to do in Skyrim! The real questions, and the one I was driving at, is how many hoops must you jump through to accomplish it. And how well will those modifications mesh with other mods. And that is the real kicker here.

 

That's the point with OOO and lock bashing. Hulk is strong, so obviously hulk should be better at lock bashing. But the vanilla version of Oblivion does not have such a system, so it's a non issue as far as the hulk mod is concerned. But wait, suddenly OOO shows up and now the game has lock bashing. Since both use functions that are present in the vanilla system, there is a synergy at work. The hulk mod makes the character really strong and good at bashing people, and the lock bashing system of OOO uses those same conditions so... tada! hulk is also good at lock bashing.

 

Of course I can tweak all the relevant attributes one by one, but that is a messy way to do it, and can in it's turn cause odd side effects with other mods. That was the point in me saying you can't do it the way you did it in Oblivion, because Oblivion has stats and Skyrim does not. You took a very specific example and somehow interpreted it to meant that I am troubled that Skyrim works differently from Oblivion, which I did not. I just stated a fact - you can not do it in Skyrim the way you would do it in Oblivion, and since no one of us knows how Skyrim really works, we don't know if it is even feasible. Or hell, it might prove to be even simpler than it is in Oblivion, but all the information we have been given, persuades me to think otherwise.

 

And yes there is one number in Skyrim that I could use as a universal substitute to STR, and that is the value of the muscle slider in char gen. I could make an STR mod that increases your damage and carry weight and even gives you the option to lock bash, all based on that one value. I could then add some sort of drawback to being big, like a sneak penalty, to balance the thing out, and survival mods could be tied to it as well. A bigger guy must eat more. So how's that thinking outside the box? Of course I have no idea whether or not this is feasible, that depends on how that data is handled by the system. But I see no reason why it shouldn't be possible.

 

And finally, a word about perks - perks are cool (the concept that is, most of Skyrims default perks are useless or silly) and yes it enables one to do things that are pretty much impossible in Oblivion. Game design wise that is. They add something to the tool set, but I can not yet evaluate how much. But I can, based on my previous knowledge with such system, evaluate how much losing stats hurts my modding possibilities. And based on that, I think it's a shame they aren't there. They are just so bloody useful in setting up all sort of mechanics.

[Shantih]

You're right, I don't have any mods to my name on this site; this seems to be something you take exception to when I talk about modding in general. Nonetheless, even though I don't have mods up on this site, I've had experience in the toolkit starting from Morrowind and extending through Oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas, and based on those toolkits (and the similarity between the Creation and Gamebryo engines), I wouldn't be surprised if the dialogue trees used the same system; despite the superficial differences, dialogue paths feel practically the same in execution, and in those cases, it's not really that difficult in writing or coding in the dialogue. The difficulty usually stems from getting actual voice talent who will contribute to the mod without charging in the first place; I strongly believe that, if there were more voice talent who would work for free, many more mods would have spoken dialog, because past games within the series have shown that programming dialogue, though somewhat complex, isn't really that hard, if maybe somewhat tedious.

 

My argument isn't quality of writing for third-party mods; my argument is in the difficulty of creating voice-acted dialogue. You're creating a strawman argument; I never said that, just because it's not hard to get voice acting for dialog, it's easy to write actual dialog that doesn't contradict lore.

 

I never said Oblivion had better writing; I simply said the writing of Skyrim is no improvement.

 

I understand the difference between "fix" and "mod"; I just don't think the phrase "mods will fix X broken thing" (and I don't mean a design decision, but something like a legitimate bug, say, the custom race fix in Oblivion) shouldn't excuse the actual broken aspects of a game.

 

Skyrim is definitely an improvement over Oblivion as far as writing and dialogues are concerned. Some may say it's subjective but no matter what, having actual dialogue lines instead of topics is an improvement -if only in the sense that it makes dialogues more immersive. You can at least pretend that your character is talking to NPCs. IMO the writing in Skyrim is on par with Fallout 3, it's not incredible and won't blow your mind away but it works. I don't expect that you will agree with me but if you can't at least acknowledge that actual dialogues are better than lists of topics then frankly I don't see the point in pursuing this exchange. :D

 

Anyway since you know all there is to know about the various toolsets going back to Morrowind and including FNV then you should start using that expertise for something constructive.

 

If you were to start a thread asking for voice talent I'd be surprised if you didn't get any response. I could even introduce you to experienced voice actors (who like modders don't do that for the money by the way).

 

That's just a suggestion. Like I said talking about modding is easy. ;)