Skyrim isn't dumbed down. Purists are.

[Goliath978]

Okay, here's what I've gleaned from the purists: you don't like...

-no classes

-less stats

-quest variety(lol?)

-lack of immersion(why?)

-all the support like quest markers and stuff being easy

Anything else?

[PavelkCZ]

Okay, here's what I've gleaned from the purists: you don't like...

-no classes

-less stats

-quest variety(lol?)

-lack of immersion(why?)

-all the support like quest markers and stuff being easy

Anything else?

Magical system crippled"streamlined" to the level of the dumb and stupid FPS game, for example ?

[Sabatasso]

Good to see that you've calmed down. Your glibness is refreshing. :biggrin:

 

I have no problem with people being angry or hostile because in the end that's their problem, not mine. But I'd rather avoid such unpleasantries because they put an end to any intellectual debate or any noteworthy exchange for that matter.

 

Anger is always a sign of weakness and I don't need a degree in anthropology to be able to tell you that.

 

There is really no need to lose your cool over a game because some random guy on the internet disagrees with you -even if this not so random guy happens to be me. I know I'm impressive. I've had that effect on people all my life, it can't be helped, we all have our crosses to bear. :P

 

Sigh, you still don't get it... You were simply wrong all along. OK, so you disagree with me and that is fine and valid, but all of your assumptions and psychoanalysis was completely off, and now you just did it again.

I didn't calm down, because I was never angry, or on the verge of name calling. I was being an ass because that's how I treat besserwissers, but I was smiling all along.

 

There are two types of people in the world, those who learn from their mistakes, and those who don't.

[Odai]

Well now... this thread again eh?

 

No. Skyrim isnt dumb, but it is a lot less logic based. Much fewer numbers and pure dedications. However you dont really need the numbers to "feel" yourself getting better. But then there are more subtle attributes. Some ingredients are more potent than others, some forges provide different and often better effects, the story has been different every time (4 now) I have played. Its amazing.

 

Its smarter than all previous games, its just shy about it.

 

As for losing skills and the more skills than morrowind if you count the perk tree branches, points of view... you are both wrong. Your character is only good at what you use. On one hand, if you swing a club all day then find an axe, you wont lose your muscle mass or ability to hit someone upside the head, so these together are logical and brilliant and bring about the idea of technique, however the addition of skills that were previously combined (pickpocket and sneak) seems to needlessly add numbers to a system attempting to logically narrow itself.

 

Then to a lore aspect, I havent done so many missions that taught me so much useless information about the game in forever, and I LOVE it. I mean really, the sheogorath quest... really pay attention and you might learn a thing or two as you jack your way through the quest with all of its twists and turns. Clever on the point of the developers to address the sheogorath issue.

 

The game also makes sure you dont develop a grand amount of power unless you deserve the numbers, You are more than capable of super potion, smithing and enchanting your way to God mode the game, but the rarest of items cannot be improved upon. Artifacts remain as they are at least in terms of smithing and so long as you have earned the artifact you get its power which is as much as your character will ever need, but the numbers guys will always be able to do better on their own. I HAVE NEVER been able to wear fur armor through a whole game until now. Something that I am happy to say.

 

Animals are "fewer" in number thanks to the lack of deadra and undead, but the variation among the remaining is outstanding. Armors and weapons have only a few variations as well but not as many as their predecessors. However, these armors and types "feel" right for the game. And are on par with the amount of heavy and light armors from Morrowind. They even throw in a "medium" armor in the heavy class. Its lighter than normal plate, but provides less protection.

 

There are working mounted siege engines! Cinematic AND useable. Morrowind's dwarven ballistas were nothing but for show.

 

Anyone who thinks the game isnt alien enough hasnt spent enough time down in dwarven ruins. Cities that rival Chorrol in size and include morrowinds mushroom trees :).

 

This game has everything. If you play for the feel of the game... you can. If you play for the numbers... you can. If you play for fun... you can. I mean really, throw voice shout? Retarded but funny. Pointless but useful. And a hard fight for all three words... that basically do the same thing.

[Goliath978]

What? Magic system dumbed down to FPS level?

 

How? That makes just about as much sense as MW2 getting 10/10 for audio and Bf3 getting 9.5/10

 

The magic is deeper if anything...oh wait...I understand. It's not like morrowind so it's dumbed down. It's like battlefield 2.5 purists all over again.

[Shantih]

Well, that's how you present your point of view. You say: My way is the bestest. In fact my way is the only way. Any other way is something else. I am the true herald of all that is roleplaying. And yes, of course I am exaggerating here - I do so to drive in the point. You could have just as well presented your point of view like this: "I personally think that the game benefits from ditching the stats. I always felt them to be artificial and couldn't connect with them. I find that I am having much easier time to define my character without their presence." To which I could have then said: "Really? I have always found stats to be extremely useful in forming my characters personality. And think their absence in Skyrim hinders my immersion. " To which you could then have then said "Really - funny that. Well to each their own." But instead you keep insisting that anyone who defends stats in a roleplaying game is not a roleplayer, but a power gamer, or something equally nonsensical.

 

So you're saying that I'm too assertive? That's ridiculous, I simply have strong opinions and if you don't like it feel free to ignore me and I will do the same.

 

What I post is my opinion (what else?!!) I'm not "the true herald of all that is roleplaying" as you put it but I'm certainly not going to sugarcoat what I'm posting to make you feel good. Sorry, I'm not that kind of guy.

 

I wish to thank you for the delightful scripted dialogue you've posted but I shall politely decline. I'm afraid you may have confused me for one of the Care Bears. I'm not going to play along or indulge that little fantasy of yours. :facepalm:

 

For one last time - I get it. You felt a disconnect between the stats and your fantasy persona - I on the other hand can't get a good connection to my fantasy persona without stats. I have no trouble believing that the lack of stats helps you to roleplay better, why can't you believe that the presence of stats helps me to roleplay better?

 

I never said that I didn't like having stats. I don't like having stats that serve no purpose or are only used to create a contrived system like the one in Oblivion.

 

You didn't get what I've posted. If you're playing a CRPG, of course roleplaying is going to matter... People can probably roleplay in the first Diablo does that make it a true RPG? I guess not and in that sense Skyrim is ten times the RPG that Oblivion ever was.

 

The only thing I can't understand about your point of view is that how stats are somehow special - that stats are bad and nonsensical numbers. But skills are not, or stamina or hit points or your carry value and the numerous other numbers strewn all over the game. How come none of those hinder your roleplaying? How come none of them are "counterintuitive number crunching?" Ultimately they are just numerical statements about your characters prowess in some field of activity or some quality of being, and are all used in various formulas in the game. Honestly - you sound like you were just burned really bad buy the sucky leveling system for stats in Oblivion.

 

You didn't understand what I'm saying because you assume that I'm advocating for the absence of any system or rules in favour of some pure form of roleplaying. That is simply not true.

 

I'm in favour of a system that doesn't get in the way of roleplaying the way Oblivion did with all the powergaming required to play through the game. In other words the rules are there to help with roleplaying and not to hinder it.

 

I'm considering things from a designer's perspective. Skills are enough to make the system work. I've never said I wanted to remove ALL the numbers. That's a gross oversimplification of what I've been saying.

 

Or in the words of a wise man:

 

“Perfection is achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away” – Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

 

That's a sound principle.

 

In the context of an RPG, stats are only useful for what they bring to the game. They have no intrinsic value.

 

Of course I can tweak all the relevant attributes one by one, but that is a messy way to do it, and can in it's turn cause odd side effects with other mods. That was the point in me saying you can't do it the way you did it in Oblivion, because Oblivion has stats and Skyrim does not. You took a very specific example and somehow interpreted it to meant that I am troubled that Skyrim works differently from Oblivion, which I did not. I just stated a fact - you can not do it in Skyrim the way you would do it in Oblivion, and since no one of us knows how Skyrim really works, we don't know if it is even feasible. Or hell, it might prove to be even simpler than it is in Oblivion, but all the information we have been given, persuades me to think otherwise.

 

So you realize that your example didn't bring anything to the discussion?

 

Anyway I'll be looking forward to seeing how you tackle the Hulk mod when the Creation Kit is released.

 

Good to see that you've calmed down. Your glibness is refreshing. :biggrin:

 

I have no problem with people being angry or hostile because in the end that's their problem, not mine. But I'd rather avoid such unpleasantries because they put an end to any intellectual debate or any noteworthy exchange for that matter.

 

Anger is always a sign of weakness and I don't need a degree in anthropology to be able to tell you that.

 

There is really no need to lose your cool over a game because some random guy on the internet disagrees with you -even if this not so random guy happens to be me. I know I'm impressive. I've had that effect on people all my life, it can't be helped, we all have our crosses to bear. :P

 

Sigh, you still don't get it... You were simply wrong all along. OK, so you disagree with me and that is fine and valid, but all of your assumptions and psychoanalysis was completely off, and now you just did it again.

I didn't calm down, because I was never angry, or on the verge of name calling. I was being an ass because that's how I treat besserwissers, but I was smiling all along.

 

There are two types of people in the world, those who learn from their mistakes, and those who don't.

 

Seems to me that you don't like or get my humour which is fine really. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings.

 

I've tried to be nice to you despite your attitude but truthfully you don't seem to be able to appreciate that and that is most unfortunate.

 

My advice -which you are free to ignore- stop "being an ass" if you don't want people to mistake you for one.

[hymhym]

Skyrim is definitely an improvement over Oblivion as far as writing and dialogues are concerned. Some may say it's subjective but no matter what, having actual dialogue lines instead of topics is an improvement -if only in the sense that it makes dialogues more immersive. You can at least pretend that your character is talking to NPCs.

 

It is subjective. And no matter how much you wish it to be otherwise, it's not. It's subjective. Based on our past discussions, I fear that you will once again fail to see the point, but....

 

Having full lines of dialogue for your character is not better writing, it's just a different technique. The idea of topics, is that you, the player, can freely imagine and roleplay the way you want to present the topic. You can imagine your character to use the words that suit your vision of your character. The downside of this technique is that there can be fairly large disconnect between what you imagine your character to say, and the way that the NPC's respond.

 

Skyrim went with a different technique. Here you have predefined lines for your character to choose from, and the response of the NPCs is more tightly connected to what your character actually says. The downside is of course that you lose some of the freedom to roleplay your character, and may feel that the game puts words into your character mouth.

 

And which one you personally prefer is just your subjective take on the matter and in no way proof one way or another about the quality of the writing involved.

[Shantih]

Skyrim is definitely an improvement over Oblivion as far as writing and dialogues are concerned. Some may say it's subjective but no matter what, having actual dialogue lines instead of topics is an improvement -if only in the sense that it makes dialogues more immersive. You can at least pretend that your character is talking to NPCs.

 

It is subjective. And no matter how much you wish it to be otherwise, it's not. It's subjective. Based on our past discussions, I fear that you will once again fail to see the point, but....

 

Having full lines of dialogue for your character is not better writing, it's just a different technique. The idea of topics, is that you, the player, can freely imagine and roleplay the way you want to present the topic. You can imagine your character to use the words that suit your vision of your character. The downside of this technique is that there can be fairly large disconnect between what you imagine your character to say, and the way that the NPC's respond.

 

Skyrim went with a different technique. Here you have predefined lines for your character to choose from, and the response of the NPCs is more tightly connected to what your character actually says. The downside is of course that you lose some of the freedom to roleplay your character, and may feel that the game puts words into your character mouth.

 

And which one you personally prefer is just your subjective take on the matter and in no way proof one way or another about the quality of the writing involved.

 

So no writing is better than actual lines.

 

Right... And you're saying I'm the one who is not seeing the point. :facepalm:

[hymhym]

So no writing is better than actual lines.

Right... And you're saying I'm the one who is not seeing the point. :facepalm:

Thank you for proving my point.

[Odai]

Skyrim is definitely an improvement over Oblivion as far as writing and dialogues are concerned. Some may say it's subjective but no matter what, having actual dialogue lines instead of topics is an improvement -if only in the sense that it makes dialogues more immersive. You can at least pretend that your character is talking to NPCs.

 

It is subjective. And no matter how much you wish it to be otherwise, it's not. It's subjective. Based on our past discussions, I fear that you will once again fail to see the point, but....

 

Having full lines of dialogue for your character is not better writing, it's just a different technique. The idea of topics, is that you, the player, can freely imagine and roleplay the way you want to present the topic. You can imagine your character to use the words that suit your vision of your character. The downside of this technique is that there can be fairly large disconnect between what you imagine your character to say, and the way that the NPC's respond.

 

Skyrim went with a different technique. Here you have predefined lines for your character to choose from, and the response of the NPCs is more tightly connected to what your character actually says. The downside is of course that you lose some of the freedom to roleplay your character, and may feel that the game puts words into your character mouth.

 

And which one you personally prefer is just your subjective take on the matter and in no way proof one way or another about the quality of the writing involved.

 

 

On one side... topics allow for you to talk to anyone and pretend you are saying whatever to whoever.

 

Lines on the other hand provide a clear response to a clear statement which (as mentioned) remedies any disconnect from the players imagined statement to the NPCs predetermined response.

 

Neither is better than the other. A player could RP a person who only says "I wanna make a baby" then lines might not be best, but the topics would yield odd replies also. Lines add some level of realism to the NPCs by giving realistic and different conversations, allowing you to familiarize yourself with their unique personality. Topics make for cookie cutter NPCs who all have a pool of responses to draw from. You can RP all you want, but NPCs are the same. In the end it is personal preference as to which you would prefer. Every shop keeper says the same thing in the same voice, or you get unique personalities where your character is given one of a few options that fit a negative, positive or neutral response. Basically garnering the same response you would want to get from RP.