Imperial VS Stormcloak

[Kuramin]

Empire all the way... The Stormcloaks say they fight for the freedom of Skyrim, which I think is quite the noble cause, but I remember some of the passing NPCs remark that Ulfric fighting for Skyrim's freedom is just a convenient excuse he's using to bolster his ranks... All he really wants is power. It might not even be true but the idea that he's selfishly making all these people die for what they think is an honorable cause just so he can sit on a big shiny throne annoys me to no end.

 

As for the Talos ban, according to Alvor (I think it was Alvor...) it wasn't even that restrictive before. Apparently everyone had a little shrine to Talos that they prayed to... that is, until Ulfric stirred the hornets nest and made them start cracking down.

 

But the main reason is because, even if the Stormcloaks beat the Empire, the Thalmor will just crush the war fatigued Stormcloaks. As far as I can tell the Empire's presence is the only thing keeping the Thalmor from conquering everything... Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the Thalmor somehow secretly antagonized Ulfric and caused this whole war. Even if neither side were to win, both sides would weakened and they'd have a better chance of conquering.

 

Or... y'know, I've been hanging around Imperial NPCs too much. :P

[Lachdonin]

And all the talk about forced unity of the continent for defence. Sounds like some people are 100 years behind modern, contemporary thought.

 

Which assumes that contemporary thought is the correct perspective. Ideas change, regularly, and the only consistantly ethical arguement is the greater good for the greater many.

 

It's a simple fact that the White Gold Concordant saved lives. Both for the Empire and the Thalmor. I feel i should point out that the Empire had actually pushed back, and completely slaughtered the bulk of the Domminion's largest army. They sued for peace because they lacked the spirit for more fighting, not because they lacked the ability.

 

It's also a simple fact that the Empire did not inforce the Talos clause of the Concordant until Ulfric kicked up a stink about it. Ulfric is responsible for calling attention to the fact that everyone still worshiped Talos, openly, in violation of the Compact, and as such he is causially responsible, if not ethically responsible for the crackdown and the scrutiny of the Thalmor.

 

Third, Skyrim is the BIRTHPLACE of the Empire. Cyrodiil may be the capital, but that doesn't change the fact that Skyrim has always been an Imperial province. They cannot argue that they want their freedom from the Empire back, because they were never free from the Empire in the first place.

 

Next, you cannot claim that the Empire and the Stormcloaks are evenly matched. For one, the Imperial Legion has 3, if not 4 provinces to take care off. Highrock, Cyrodiil, Skyrim and potentially parts of Morrowind. The Legion in Skyrim may be evenly matched with the Stormcloaks, but its a borderline idiotic stretch to assume that the presence in Skyrim constitutes the strength of the Empire. As such, the arguement that their equal strength means the Nords could hold off the Thalmor holds no logical base, because one premise, their equal strength, is blatantly false.

 

Moving on, the Redguard are better fighters than the Nords. We're told in almost every racial description that the Redguard are the consumate fighters, masters of weapons, and highly dangerous battle mages. As such, it also cannot be argued that just because the Redguard drove the Thalmor out of Hammerfell, the Nords can do it as well.

 

On the same note, the Redguard did not succeed in driving the Thalmor out. They were losing, and losing bad, until the Empire retook the Imperial City and slaughtered the Thalmor army there. This would have prompted the Thalmor to redirect troops against a potential Imperial counter attack (Which never came, mind you) which would have taken pressure off of the Redguard. They used this to regain their footing. Different sources contradict eachother as to whether Hammerfell succeded from the Empire, of if they were thrown out due to the Concordant, but either way they became independant. There was then a continued conflict with the Thalmor, who being so depleted from their loss at the Imperial City signed a treaty with the Redguard and withdrew to the outer territories they had capture. This is very similar to the Korea conflict, in that both sides kinda won, kinda lost.

 

The Stormcloaks are fighting for what they beleive in, yes, and thats an admirable goal. But, the Empire is doing the same, and contrary to the little loading screen snippet, it isn't just about obeying their laws. If both sides are fighting for what they beleive in, how do you judge the value of either side? You ahve to evaluate their reasons, and the Stormcloak's just do not hold up to scruteny.

 

Then you have their hipocracy, in the form of the oppression of the Foresworn, who prior to the Markarth Incedent were not savages, briggands and murders, but rather second class citizens whose treatment seems to be almost as bad as the treatment of slaves in Morrowind. How can the Nords claim their right to protect their culture (Which, as i have mentioned, is as much Imperial Culture as anything) when they forcible repress the culture of the peoples whose land they currently occupy?

 

This, coupled with the caliber of leadership the Stormcloaks have, should make any rational person severely question the validity of their revolution. To me, at least, there is a very clear cut Right and Wrong here, and the deeper i look the more black and white it becomes. Just because someone beleives in something does not make it ethically right, and as much as i know Bethesda was trying to make it a tough choice, the sides are barely less polarised than the Legion of NCR of New Vegas.

[elvinkun]

@Lachdonin

 

With words of the one who is wiser than we all are - "You know...That's like... Your opinion, dude."

 

I agree that both sides fight for what they believe, but Stormcloaks are hardly so simple and evil as you describe them. Ulfric himself is very dubious character, yes, he wants power, yes, but at the end of the day, he does what he believes is best for Skyrim. Which surely is not good for Empire.

 

Also, just because founder of the Empire / Empire itself originated from Skyrim, doesn't make Skyrim's indeendence idea nonsense. can't really see the reasoning behind this.

 

Neither NCR and Legion are white and black, you just have to look deeper than "nice helpfull soldiers vs ugly barbaric slavers". More like Grey and Grey.

Edited November 30, 2011 by elvinkun

[Lachdonin]

Sorry, i'm not trying to argue 'Good vs Evil'. Its more of a Justified vs Missguided thing. Skyrim does indeed have a right to its own soverignty if it wishes, but as it stands it seems the whole Civil War is not supported by the majority of the population. To complicate things, most of the reasons the Stormcloaks use to draw others to their side are unjustified. Its a case of a loud minority fighting for what it wants and overpowering the usual murmmur of the general will.

 

Thats not to say the Stormcloaks are not justified in some of their arguements. Banning a religion is a moronic thing to do. The Empire is bending over backwards for the Domminion (It seems to be following a policy of appeasement, and we all know how well that went in the 30's...). But the root of it is they are fighting for false claims, all at the behest of someone who clearly only wants the throne. Whats worse, we know Ulfric started off as an agent of the Thalmor he claims to dispise, further calling into question his complaints about the Thalmor. If the Stormcloaks weren't so tainted by Ulfric's obvious greed and self importance, there would be a lot more validity to their complaints. As it is, they are blatantly puppets of a tyrant who are using fallicious information to draw soldiers to their side.

 

Back to the soverignty thing, the arguement they use is that they want to REGAIN their freedom from the Empire. Since they founded the Empire, they have never been free of it, because during the period of their last independance the Empire did not exist. You cannot be free of something that doesnt exist. That doesn't mean they can't be independant of the Empire if they so wish, but their arguement for renewed freedom has no logic to it.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Lachdonin

[elvinkun]

@Lachdonin

 

Well, I'd say the general opinion is "Peace, whoever or whatever will be the ruler", with exception of those who have their money on the empire (Battle-borns...) or those who got hurt by the Empire in any way or really value traditions.

 

Empire screwed up by the religion ban combined with Thalmor "culture killing" aolng with their right to walk around and turture/kill people who are just -might- be favoring Talos, free speech or the Stormcloaks, before that by making Skyrim second-class province, combined with ignoring the Jarls and not even trying to hide that they, in fact, do directly control the High King. That just calls for rebelion from the more extreme individuals. Of course, extreme-Ulfric, revered as a hero of Skyrim by many would not miss the chance they kindly offered.

 

Sidenote: Not an agent, they called him "an asset", and also the last communication between him ad Thalmor happened during the Great war, which is a way back. Why is he an asses is kinda ovious tho, as long as he wages war with the empire.

 

I'd say that Empire is or might be the better choice for the future, but the Empire as it is now doesn't really deserve much of anything. There is a difference between truce and Thalmor backside-riding... Which most likely comes to the weak Emperor who will rather sacrifice people than his position.

 

As for the "free Skyrim", the people seem to value traditions there and that is being anbsorbed and oppressed as never before, so yes, they might want to go to pre-ipmerial times or back to the place of "ruling" faction. Saying they can't be free, because they never were just makes the need for rebellion even stronger, don't you think?

Edited November 30, 2011 by elvinkun

[Starch]

So, basically its like American election, Who is the lesser evil and vote for that one.

[J_R]

I held out on getting involved until after the MQ, then it was Imperials all the way.

 

Firstly as a Dark Elf, Ulfric & Co come off as a bunch of ignorant and arrogant xenophobes.. and after seeing how my own people in the Grey Quarter are treated.. not a whole lot of incentive to help them out. Secondly Ulfric acted like a complete self-entitled baby at the peace conference at High Hrothgar.. whereas the General was very professional about it all. Thirdly their whole movement is misdirected and not beneficial for Skyrim at all.. Ulfric's attention-seeking assassination and in fact the entire rebellion does nothing to help make steps towards creating a Skyrim independent of the Thalmor.. all it did was weaken Skyrim and increase the Thalmor's stranglehold. In fact if Ulfric were to win, I would fear he would immediately violate the pact with the Thalmor and get an already weakened Skyrim obliterated.

 

Basically Ulfric is a self-absorbed and short-sighted moron with very little wisdom but enough charisma to misguide people into following him. The ideas behind the rebellion are sound.. the execution is piss poor.

 

As my character is hugely anti-Thalmor, from the new position of a united Skyrim and huge influence in almost every city (through not only the civil war but being the leader of several factions, thane, etc.), he is in the perfect position to get the start of a movement against the Thalmor going - the real enemy of Skyrim. Enacting change from the inside-out is the way to go.

[Breaking Dawn]

Ehh, I just wanted to add my two cents. I agree with several people that neither the Imperials or Stormcloaks either good or evil. Sorry for the wall of text.

 

Something I noticed though is that a lot of people keep mentioning how the Empire is trying to destroy Skyrim's culture. Am I missing something? I haven't really seen too much of it, if you walk into any "'Imperial" city in Skyrim you only see local guards, all the laws are made by the local government/Jarls. There aren't any Imperials forcing the locals to do anything so I am not really seeing the oppression, the people are as free as anyone in a fuedal society (which would not change under the Stormcloaks).The only places I have even seen Thalmor is in Markarth (and likely Solitude, but I have not been there yet). They empire does lose points for letting the Thalmor wander the wilderness and arrest people though. I think the Empire is barely permitting the Thalmor to keep up their pursecution 'cause both Whiterun and Markarth have Talos shrines and the Thalmor haven't exactly closed them down. In the end I guess I like the Empire because I don't see a lot of interference, they are gracious in victory and how most of their Jarls/Govenors are likeable.What I don't like is that the Emporeor is a pushover, its seems to be starting to get stagnant and

 

As for them going to execute you, you were caught in the prescence of several traitors and a horse thief, those crimes are punishable by death. The one Imperial seems disinclined to execute you even if they have a fairely good reason, (how do they know you aren't in cahoots with the Stormcloaks? They have you at guilt by association which is illegal not but definately not at that time period/society. Also what proof do you have of your innocence?), to use an example from recent histoy, when the SEALS raided Osama's stronghold they would have shot anyone in the vicinity who remotely looked at them threateningly, (which given how badass your character gets this isn't unreasonable). So what they do isn't right but it makes sense to me atleast and looks fairly reasonable.

 

Something I did not like about the Stormcloaks was their unwillingness to compromise, Ulfric's war crimes and his admitted desire to commit genocide. The thing I really like about them is that they are willing to go out and fight for their beliefs and are fairely straight forward with what they want. They are also willing to stand up to the Thalmor and actually do something against them, the Thalmor are like Hitler, until someone stands up and forces them to stop they won't. They are extreme but you need to be in order to combat someone as batshit crazy as the Thalmor.

 

So yeah, I guess both sides make sense and are equally hateable, it is finally true grey-and-grey morality.

[Euclid]

Same here: I did not mind either, the Stormcloaks nor the Imperials although I did not like the Thalmors. Always thought that this would be one reason not to side with the Imperials but then I was kind of forced to do so. How?

 

Well, I went to explore the land and came across a fort. No shut gates or so, no red dots. So I thought I check it out. Ran around not reallizing (or at least too late) that someone was shouting warings "you're not suppose to be here"... So I was trying to find the exit of this yard but it was dark and ....well, I was not fast enough. Suddenly red dots everywhere. Turned out it was a Stormcloak camp.

 

Happens a couple more times - similar situation. Very unpleasant folks, not worth to side with.

 

 

Cheers Euclid

Edited December 1, 2011 by Euclid

[lordandromeda]

When I first played the game, I seem to have befriended an imperial, but something happened I honestly can't remember, and that save was lost. SOMEHOW, I ended up in an entirely different sequence of running away from the dragon events, and followed a stormcloak to riverwood.

 

I roleplay as much of "myself" as I can put into the game, and for me that means obsessive about the bigger picture.

 

I am always a dunmer.

Always.

 

I forget why, but ever since Morrowind I have always felt DEEP animosity towards the altmer. I hate them, to my very core. High elves disgust me. As a dunmer, formerly known as the GODLY CHIMER, I have always and will always side against those awful creatures.

 

This made my choice even easier, when I learned that the legion is friends with the Thalmor.

 

Though I was still very very sad the day Ulfric ordered an invasion of Whiterun. As my first Jarl, and the first hold I was named Thane of, I did feel a bit of indebtedness to him, but Ulfric DId offer him a peaceful option to ally with the cloaks, and he refused.

 

Denying the offering of that blade was his worst mistake.

 

LONG LIVE THE GREY-MANES!