Imperial VS Stormcloak

[Deleted5388374User]

Hallo,

I agree that the empire is probably on its way out, but I was focusing more on taking out the Thalmor regardless of our character's thoughts on Imperial rule. Its not just the empire's strength, but also that the rest of it could turn into an obstacle to the Stormcloaks even if the Stormcloaks win in Skyrim. Also to reiterate that its a gamble either way due to the lack of info our characters can collect in-game, and that our character's experiences prior to getting caught are up to us to imagine.

EDIT:

 

For all we know, the empire could be succesfully building up forces in secret, or it may not. For the Stormcloaks, other provinces (particularly Hammerfell) may be eager to ally with them should they prove victorious, or they may not. Our characters are unfortunately unable to venture outside Skyrim to better assess the situation, and given their blank slate backgrounds, we can easily imagine events in their past which may justify their choices one way or another (maybe a Redguard character knows if Hammerfell would be interested, maybe a Breton has heard of opposition to Stormcloak expansion from High Rock, etc.).

Edited March 27, 2013 by Guest

[sisterof]

@HighkingUlfricStormcloak: I'm not sure we can say "this and this Divine favours Men, this this Mer". Akatosh is hardly anti-mortals. We don't even know for sure if Akatosh was indeed tricked by Lorkhan.
What do we know for sure about the Divines' plans for mortals? The Thalmor seem to think that mortals should aspire to get rid of mortality and become like the gods, and that Auri'El taught them a way to do so. Now would that mean that the Divines want the Thalmor to succeed?

Lithium Flower brought up a good point a while ago, about the Akatosh/Magus/Lorkhan conflict being re-enacted by Tiber Septim/the Underking/I keep forgetting what the other guy was called. We need to also take in consideration that Auri'El was an avatar of Akatosh, but maybe didn't represent Akatosh's will fully. So we could have Aurii'El's approach not being necessarily the same as Akatosh, for the same reason that Talos has been three entities that do not necessarily agree with each other when separated.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the Divines' plans maybe be unfathomable, and maybe the conflict exists only between avatars (avatars of Shor against avatars of Akatosh and such). Maybe what we'll have is another epic friendship/rivalry relationship like the one between the three people that originated Talos, not a fight with the Divines taking a stance. Maybe we'll have a demi-god from the Dominion and another from the Empire to represent the other two sides of the triad that, with the Dovahkiin, is complete. So I have no idea. This is too trippy and I'm sleepy. :confused:

Edit: I totally wrote Anui'El instead of Auri'El every single time. Hopefully it's corrected now. -_-

Edited March 27, 2013 by sisterof

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Shor is the hero god of mankind. (Lorkhan) He was the King or Chief of the Gods and tricked, not Akatosh, but the other Aedra (Now elves) into giving up their immortality.(In order to create Nirn) (Oddly, the moons are apparently a part of Shor, his sundered halves.) He is still held in reverence by mankind. "Shor's Bones" and "Shor have mercy on you." He is Sovngarde and the King of that realm according to Tsun (The God of Trials). The Aedra dont necessarily hate men but they hate Shor and Shor is the god of mankind. He created them and Nirn.

I found it somewhere that it said "Tamriel is the place of final battle between men and mer." I'll admit I cant seem to find it now, but I did before, so I shall do it again.

The Elves blame Shor for their mortality and hate him and men for that reason. Im not saying Akatosh hates men or mer or anything but Shor is man's god, obviously men also worship other Aedra but he's their Chief god.

Edited March 27, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

It's similar to the Norse hero Sigurd, in legend.

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Odin was told by the Norn (mysterious god-like beings that hold the threads of time. Like the Elder Scrolls) that his fate would be, in Ragnarok, that he would die by Fenrir the Wolf. And Thor would die by the Midgard serpent. This would be so, such is why Odin rules in Valhalla, to strengthen his army for the battle that awaits him in the end of days, unless the "Worlds Chosen", of Odin's seed, comes forth to join him in the final battle against evil and saves the gods and men. Sigurd is or was told to be that hero, the dragonslayer, the great Norse King. This is similar to the story of the Dovahkiin. Obviously not the same but similar to the myth.

[LordSam17]

The way I saw it was this:

Every being is free to determine their own path. I almost went Stormcloak for this reason alone.

However, when I enter Windhelm and see how pretty much every nord there is against any elf (with the exception of that one dude you meet in candlehearth hall) or non-nordic race, I see that Ulfric wants to determine the fate of everyone. Not just his city, or maybe even his country. He wants to kill any one who gets in his way, which is why he killed the high king.

And this I cannot abide. However, since I hold out hope for an official dlc where we kick the thalmor out of skyrim, I have not finished the civil war quest line a second time. I'm thinking if we do get to kick the thalmor out of skyrim, it would be better to have the full, combined, efforts of both Empire and Stormcloak fighting against the thalmor.

But, if it comes down to picking a side before that, I will choose the empire. Bigger force, and they would allow the free worship of Talos again if they win. Scratch that, when they win, since my Dragonborn would help them.

Funny how the tide always changes dramatically when one minor hero is thrown into the mix, huh?

[LithiumPower]

Hi there!

 

Have you had a chance to read the last couple of pages of the discussion yet? We were just addressing this point a few posts back. If you can't do that, then I'd encourage you to skim through the documents linked in my sig. It's a basic summary of the main talking points for each side and will help you get on the same page as the rest of us.

 

Firstly, I'm not sure if you're new to the TES universe, but a certain degree of racism and suspicion of outsiders is endemic. We can observe that in Morrowind, Oblivion and now Skyrim. To accuse the nords of being racist without considering the whole picture is a bit unfair.

 

Secondly, the anti-dunmer resentment in Windhelm is particular to the circumstances of the ghetto-isation observed there and doesn't fully reflect the other stormcloak holds which hold a large mer population generally and have more mer in positions of importance/serving in the courts of the Jarls than Imperial holds.

 

Thirdly, the scripted scene you witness in Windhelm is arguably meant to serve as a counterpoint to the scripted scene presented in Solitude. Did you happen to look around Castle Dour and the torture room in the dungeon? What about the Torturer and his assistant at Helgen? What were your views about that?

 

What makes you feel that Ulfric's only concern is power for power's sake?

 

I'm really looking forward to a DLC that gives some resolution to the Civil War, something that moves the time forward a little would be very interesting.

 

Thanks for joining us and welcome to the thread!

[TheLoreSeeker]

Don't want to offend you at all Lithium but your Stormcloak argument document is FAR better written and researched than your Imperial one. I figure its because there are more people here in support of the Stormcloaks that have made compelling arguments on their behalf, but still...you should make sure both documents are up to par if we're gonna be referring any new comers to them.

[LithiumPower]

It is definitely shorter but those are all the points I could think of personally, if anyone has something to add, I'd love to take a look and incorporate those arguments. I wouldn't at all consider the documents to be a conclusive be-all and end-all of the discussion, but a summary of the main talking points so we don't rehash the same stuff over and over, that's all.

[sisterof]

Don't want to offend you at all Lithium but your Stormcloak argument document is FAR better written and researched than your Imperial one. I figure its because there are more people here in support of the Stormcloaks that have made compelling arguments on their behalf, but still...you should make sure both documents are up to par if we're gonna be referring any new comers to them.

We have repeatedly asked Imperial supporters for aid, TheLoreSeeker, so that both documents would be roughly the same size. Do add to it! It's a group effort.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Hey guys! I think the Imperial document is a good start but should be re-written by an actual Imperial, not a Stormcloak. It's a good effort on behalf of a Stormcloak but it's written from a "Oh well and this is what they think perspective." If it's going to be taken seriously, it must be re-written by an Imperial. Good job on the Stormcloak one though. Personally, I'm a little concerned that in doing this document, the Stormcloaks are trying to prevent certain talking points from being challenged. I mean, all the DLCs aren't in yet, we don't really know that the Empire is dieing, we don't know what the state of all Cyrodil really is. This seems like a way, without offending anyone, for you guys to just deny the argument. I dunno, I remember when I thought that all of Morrowind had been conquered by the Argonians and that was not true. Same with these documents. Again, it was well - written. However, I think it's wrong to start denying discussion(s) from the other side because you guys have made up your minds that "This is how it is." Sometimes you can be wrong. Just saying.

 

Although I have yet to really choose either side, leaning towards the Imperials. :biggrin:

 

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

I see you have read the documents on Lithium Flower's signature and We are welcoming any input you might have to add.

 

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We do actually have proof that Cyrodiil is experiencing strife, crime and banditry. It is stated by several NPC's that Cyrodiil is experiencing all these things. "I escaped fighting in Cyrodiil, only to have it track me down here in Skyrim." And Cicero also claims that the province is needing to deal with a large list of troubles.

 

"27th of Hearthfire, 4E 188. The situation in Bravil grows more dire. The city has erupted in violence, due to a war of control being waged by Cyrodiil's two largest skooma traffickers. The Listener, Alisanne Dupre, has been forced to employ sellswords to protect her own residence."

 

"1st of Hearthfire, 4E 189. Cheydinhal has erupted into violence and chaos, like so many other cities before it. The Sanctuary has remained unbreached, but for how long? Our numbers are few, and with no Speaker, the contracts have dwindled almost to nothingness. Rasha's hold on the Sanctuary is slipping."

 

there's no evidence to be had that shows that Cicero hates or is biased against the Empire or Cyrodiil. Therefore this is an unbiased perspective on the events in Cyrodiil.

 

Several cities are experiencing large amounts of violence. So Cyrodiil is in a dire situation. And where is the legion to keep the peace? It's on the border with the dominion and in Skyrim fighting the Nords. Brina Merilis also says "The legion is spread thin trying to keep the peace." The legion is in Skyrim, not to protect the Nord people but to secure the resources in Skyrim to help the legion and the Empire. So thats a main reason why I hate the Empire now, why I refuse to side with them.

 

So the legion is unable to save its capitol province.

 

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Now on the Empire dying. It has taken its first steps into an irreversible spiral of collapse. Civil unrest, economic instability, internal power struggles, drug problems, in fighting, rebellions and riots. So the Empire is unable to continue, if they war with the dominion again it will mean the end of the Empire.

 

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Morrowind was invaded by argonians. Many, many Dunmer have made this clear. Rolf Stone Fist makes a good point when he says "Lets just dig a big hole and throw all these Dark elves and Argonians in it. Let 'em tear each other to pieces."

 

When you analyze that it;s because they have a bitter hatred of each other. House Redoran saved the Dunmer people from the invasion because the Imperials had withdrawn their forces from Morrowind to help themselves.

 

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Also, we have tried to invite Imperials to help the argument but they havent been there to do so. I have asked a good friend of mine to help but even he hasnt made it that much better. So were making the arguments because they are there to be made. We are not denying anything, we have proof and evidence behind nearly all of our arguments for the Stormcloaks. Whereas the Imperials seem to not have as much. I wish there was a better document but I cant leave my position to pretend to be an Imperial, its not fair to anyone.

 

Also, Lithium Flower, from what I remember, started out as a neutral. So he's written the Imperial Argument without bias and is asking for more input.

Edited March 28, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak