Imperial VS Stormcloak

[SpockST]

We aren't veterans until we're out of the military.

Guess that makes me a veteran. I retired in 1987.

[LithiumPower]

First you discredit Skaven's journal, then you use it as a supporting document - you can't have it both ways - make up your mind. I agree with you that Skaven's journal is not a source that is well researched - it's her private journal. The only reason it was raised in illustration was to show that a potential alliance between Hammerfell and Skyrim is an idea familiar to the redguard - even Kematu alludes to it. No one ever said that the journal shows beyond a doubt that there are negotiations or government level talks on going between the two - there aren't.

 

You erected that notion as a strawman then went to town on it. No one has ever claimed that a Skyrim-Hammerfell alliance is guaranteed because Luah Al Skaven wrote about it. All we have said is that the journal shows that the idea is present in the minds of ordinary redguards and that the journal shows that the redguards hate the Empire.

 

You know what, discard the journal completely. Forget about it.

 

It's still entirely logical to argue that the Redguard would rather ally with a fresh, new government in Skyrim which has been through the same betrayal as Hamnmerfell than the very Empire that stabbed them in back.

 

And please, don't insult us all by continuing to toe this ridiculous line that the Empire (the Legion, the Emperor - they're all one and the same) tried to help Hammerfell. They most emphatically did not.

 

The AD attacked Hammerfell, the legion in Hammerfell consisting primarily of redguard troops like all other provincial legions, defended it. Then Cyrodiil was attacked. When the AD sacked Imperial City, the Emperor recalled all his legions to take it back - including the legion engaging the AD in Hammerfell. Decianus, not the Empire, not Legion Command, not the Emperor decided on his own to discharge some of his men as 'invalids' in defiance of his direct orders. Why would he need to do that if the Legion/Empire/Emperor wanted to continue the fight in Hammerfell? It would be completely illogical. This is the very reason why Hammerfell has a bitter hatred of the Empire. Legate Quintius admits this, along with the statement that he can only hope they reconcile. Like I can only hope that Palestine and Israel reconcile and stop murdering each other. And the muslim countries announce universal same-sex rights.

 

And as for Skyrim doing nothing to help Hammerfell - it's even more ridiculous to imagine they'd be in a position - they were not an independent sovereign state - the rebellion was leaderless, Ulfric was in prison following the Markarth Incident - the Stormcloaks weren't organised to the extent they are now. It took years for the movement to gain momentum - skirmishes were being fought, Snow-Shods lost their daughter, Solaf of Falkreath got injured, etc etc. Ulfric came out of prison shortly before Torygg took over and he renewed his struggle immediately - demanding Torygg to declare independence as a condition for supporting him at the moot. Torygg agreed to consider it and then sat on it for years.

 

You're absolutely right that we know nothing about the loyalties of High Rock. We do not. We do know however that the Nords have made at least preliminary overtures towards a potential alliance but they have not received a response as yet. This is not surprising because they are still nominally a part of the empire. We do know that their cities have been looted by corsairs and the legion has once again, to the surprise of no one, failed to protect the citizens. Is it because they have been called to shore up the border south? How do you imagine High Rock feels about that?

 

Finally, I can't remember who made the point about a two-pronged invasion overland from Cyrodiil over the Jerall and Wrothgorian Mts, capture Falkreath and the Reach/Whiterun to resupply the army in Solitude or Dawnstar? Really? And is Hammerfell just going to sit around during this march across Cyrodiil and wait their turn? And what about Cyrodiil itself? There are still people there, counts and warlords of the type that were the Medes during the interregnum - are they going to just allow them to pass unchallenged? What about the imperial legions sitting in the south? Will they magically vanish with a stormcloak victory? The AD had the advantage of surprise last time and they lost their whole army by opening two fronts and never even reached beyond Imperial City. How will they ever manage a second two-pronged invasion around the side of the entire continent and one through it with everyone on war footing. And if they can invade Skyrim from the north, and also sally forth inland from the south - what have they been waiting for?

 

Why will they be able to do this to an independent Skyrim but not one assimilated in the Empire?

[LithiumPower]

I'm posting from my phone so I can't edit my earlier post for some reason. But I had one additional point of to add. The argument isn't whether Skyrim is stronger against the AD on its own but whether there even will be a war with Empires policy of appeasement. The empire hasn't gone to war already because firstly they don't have the motivation to break WGC and secondly because they are caught in the spiral of collapse and are too bogged down with internal problems, the skyrim rebellion is just one of which.

 

What reason has the empire to want war in the first place and add further problems to their plate? They don't want to fight, the status quo suits them and suits the Thalmor. It doesn't suit the nords.

 

[MightyZ0G]

 

the situation between the Empire invading Akavir by sea and the Dominion invading Skyrim is very different.

 

the Empire was restricted to crossing a sea to resupply

the Dominion could resupply through Cyrodiil, High Rock or Morrowind as well as by sea

can you see the difference?

the Empire could not resupply or reinforce the Expeditionary force

the Dominion doesn't have the same restrictions

 

 

So Cyrodiil, Hammerfell, High Rock and Morrowind are just going to allow the AD to roll in and attack Skyrim. I dont think so. They will have to fight Hammerfell again, which they showed they cant do easily, they have to fight Morrowind, who hates them as well. They have to fight the Bretons as well, all of this will divert their resources. Also I have explained before that taking Skyrim, due to its natural defenses, cannot be taken without an overwhelming military force, which the AD doesnt have. Thus why they are playing the divide and conquer game.

 

The Sea of Ghosts is also arctic waters, not some pond with no waves and beasts.

 

To get to Skyrim they will have to take forts, kill Imperials who wont be caught off guard, they have to march through a pass which is a choke point allowing for guerrillas to attack. The guerrillas know they land far better than the AD, and the Nords have a large military force. A force of, at the minimum, of 5,000 men. So if the AD cant take Hammerfell, how could they take Skyrim?

I never said anything about Hammerfell, but if we concede that Skyrim leaves the Empire and the Empire is crumbling with gang wars and civil unrest throughout High Rock and Cyrodiil and that Morrowind is a wasteland after all the natural disasters, who is going to stop the AD from marching up to Skyrim's borders?

 

also, the AD couldn't take Hammerfell because they were weakened by the war in Cyrodiil and didn't have the resources to finish the job, so they did what they did in Cyrodiil and signed a peace treaty.

but since then we know that the AD have made some gains in Hammerfell due to Saardia selling the Redguards out to the Thalmor.

the only province that seems to be free from internal struggles is Summerset Isle.

the Thalmor have agents moving freely around in Skyrim and may even have supplies stashed away to supply an invading army. this is quite likely coinsidering the planning put in before The Great War.

 

the assumption that they don't have a military force is based on speculation.

they have had as long to rebuild as all the other provinces and could have a far larger army than anyone thinks.

the Thalmor have been able to operate throughout the Imperial provinces but the Empire hasn't been able to operate in Summerset Isle.

the Thalmor know where the forts and defenses are in Skyrim and all through the Empire. they have a strategic advantage that the Empire can't match and the Stormcloaks are even worse off.

this is another reason why the invasion of Akavir is irrelevent.

then the Empire had no real intelligence on where they were going.

the Thalmor know exactly what the terrain is like.

the Stormcloaks can hide behind the city walls but they'll starve in no time.

the AD can simply hit the farms and fishing boats with a few fireballs and Skyrim runs out of food.

 

and an after thought, if Hammerfell is so powerfull and the Dominion so weak, why didn't the Redguards invade Summerset Isle after beating the Dominion in Hammerfell?

the Dominion was defeated but not destroyed and are still the force to be reckoned with.

(narrative imperative is in play again here. the AD has to be strong and biding its time or there is no threat and the Empire could send all the legions into Skyrim, execute all the rebels and maintain the status quo)

[sisterof]

- Your claim that Ulfric was “better” harkens back to what I said earlier about Ulfric’s “warrior mentality” vs Torygg’s “diplomat mentality”. Ulfric lives by a “the strongest should rule” mentality. This in and of itself shows that he would make a crappy ruler, a good warlord maybe…but not a good diplomat.

- They say “murdered” because of how one-sided the duel was. Everyone knew Torygg would lose. Ulfric had more skill, experience, and fighting ability. The thing that pisses everyone off is that he didn’t win “honorably”. He used the Thu’um and shouted Torygg to the floor, then essentially executed him. So Torygg accepted the honor duel and then Ulfric “cheated”. I know you could argue that Shouting is a skill and a tool that should be used, but that goes against the mentality of the Greybeards who instructed Ulfric to use his skill for different goals. His current use of the Thu’um is technically abusing its intended use.

Saying Torygg had a "diplomatic mentality is a bit of a stretch. Is there any point that shows Torygg having any mentality? I get the impression he simply sat on his throne and let stuff happen without ever getting involved in anything other than his queen. He was urged to stand up against the WGC and for several years did nothing.

 

About the duel, I still think Ulfric decided to start with the Thu'um simply because it is something that someone of strong will can resist, showing that Torygg had no willpower to be a High King. Being much younger also makes no difference, Torygg was an adult with a beard and a wife and, most importantly, a crown. His supposedly excessive youth is actually an advantage against a middle aged man in terms of strength and endurance. If the High King refused to act, preserved the status quo and gave no indication of doing anything - what was left for a Jarl to do but to challenge his rule in the old way? I find it sad that Torygg was such a big fanboy of Ulfric, and it's a pity, but he was no child.

 

However, I'm not sure Ulfric tried to get Torygg to act enough times before resorting to the challenge. Torygg himself doesn't show any initiative, which is troubling in itself.

 

Also, I don't get this "Ulfric thinks the stronger must rule". He does say repeatedly that the High King must be strong - in motivation, willpower and arms. But, to me, it never sounded like he thought that it was like a wolf pack with everyone biting each other until the physically stronger emerged. He's not even that much a warchief - Galmar has that role.

 

Edit: Just saw mighty zog's post. So, @mighty zog: there's one hell of an abyss between "able to defend its border" and "able to march across land and sea for an invasion".

Edited March 31, 2013 by sisterof

[TheLoreSeeker]

True, the only positive things we know about Torygg is that he loved his wife and whatever his court says about him. Even after his death he still gets respectable comments from loyalist and stormcloak supporters alike. Elisif on the other hand is concerned with the affairs of the people (a policy she could've gotten from her husband)...but she has no experience in ruling, so Falk, Erikur, Bryling, and Sybille help her along.

 

Yeah...I know... Erikur....bleh....

 

 

When Ulfric Stormcloak, with savage Shout, sent me here, my sole regret was fair Elisif, left forlorn and weeping. I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?

 

But why is the fact that the man loved his wife being used as a point as to why he wasn't "fit to rule"?

Edited March 31, 2013 by TheLoreSeeker

[MightyZ0G]

@Sisterof, that is actually part of what I have been saying and Skyrim might not even be able to defend its borders and has very little hope of invading anywhere.

Summerset Isle hasn't been faced with invasion and, in the years since the Great War, has been able to make preparations, gather intelligence and do the groundwork for an invasion of any or all of the Imperial provinces. but the AD don't need to invade yet. they are best served letting the Nords kill each other and any Imperials or Bretons who happen to be caught up in the fighting.

they are in no hurry as they get stronger while the Empire and Skyrim get weaker.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

@Sisterof, that is actually part of what I have been saying and Skyrim might not even be able to defend its borders and has very little hope of invading anywhere.

Summerset Isle hasn't been faced with invasion and, in the years since the Great War, has been able to make preparations, gather intelligence and do the groundwork for an invasion of any or all of the Imperial provinces. but the AD don't need to invade yet. they are best served letting the Nords kill each other and any Imperials or Bretons who happen to be caught up in the fighting.

they are in no hurry as they get stronger while the Empire and Skyrim get weaker.

 

 

There are three passes, choke points that the AD would have to pass through in order to get into Skyrim. The Stormcloaks show they know how to use guerrilla tactics, so the AD has to chase the guerrillas through the jagged, rocky, steep, ice-covered, mountains and face the harshest climate, winter wise, in Tamriel and fight an uphill battle. If they were to get into the pass the Nords could blockade the pass with just a few soldiers, like Thermopylae, aka the Spartan 300. Or the Nords could block off the pass with an avalanche or rocks, then ambush the elves and either wipe them out or severely weaken them. Or they could cut them off from their supply lines and starve them out. Its not like the world we live in, borders can be crossed, so the Nords could attack the elves in the passes from the other side.

 

I would assume that when the Empire collapses their wont be much resistance within Cyrodiil, and the Forts in Cyrodiil would be taken by brigands and bandits, so in order to take the Forts there they must divert more resources and man power to take the Fort and hold it as well. Hammerfell wont just allow the AD to roll through Hammerfell, Morrowind wont allow it either. High Rock, well we don't know a lot about the situation there. They, for all we know, could be allied with the Dominion, unlikely but who knows. - If anyone has any info on High Rock, please share it, all we know is thats its still technically a part of the Empire, but judging by Galmar sending a request for their help makes me wonder if it is or not. I'm curious about High Rock. In "A concise account of the great war" is says Breton blood was spilled for the empire in the war, so we know they helped.

 

The Elves have resorted to a "Divide and conquer" tactic. I assume they do this because they cannot provide a real military front against either the Empire or Skyrim. But I could be wrong, they could just be playing smart and weakening them without using their own resources.

 

Ulfric: Any last words before I send you to Oblivion? (To Tullius)

Tullius: You realize this is exactly what they wanted?

Galmar: What who wanted?

Tullius: The Thalmor, they stirred up trouble here, forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion.

Ulfric: Its a little more than a rebellion don't you think?

Galmar: Ah! Hahaha! (agreeing)

Tullius: We aren't the bad guys you know.

Ulfric: Maybe not. But you certainly aren't the good guys.

Tullius: Perhaps you're right. But then what does that make you?

Ulfric: You just said it yourself.

Galmar: It makes us right.

Tullius: And if I surrender?

Ulfric: The Empire I remember, never surrendered.

Galmar: That empire is dead, and so are you.

Tullius: So be it.

 

etc, etc.

 

You say the Stormcloaks are incapable, right now, of an invasion. It would make sense, but Galmar and Ulfric's first goal, after siding with them in the Civil War, is to rebuild Skyrim, then train armies, recruit more men, then invade Summerset Isles. This will take at least two to three years. They are also planning on building up defenses and preparing for the imperials trying to retake Skyrim and for the AD to try and invade.

 

Also, Ulfric isnt oppressing the Dunmer. Belyn Hlaalu is very wealthy and is upset that his brothers (other Dunmer) are complaining about their situation but not doing anything. "The only way to earn the Nords respect is through Hard work." - Belyn Hlaalu. He's just one citizen that feels that way, also Niranye, Arivanya, Ulundi, Faryl Atheron and a few others. Also read "Scourge of the Grey Quarter." It explains that the Dunmer of Windhelm are the ones to blame for their situation. Not Ulfric or the Nords. I'm not, however, condoning the behavior of Rolf Stone-Fist, or Angrenor Once-Honored.

 

Sorry I haven't been on to reply to you guys, I got a virus.

 

And for Sithis17 calling me a veteran (If I'm correct), Thank you and I'm flattered but I have to say, I'm not a vet, I'm still active duty and only an E-3, Private First Class. Unless you were calling Ulfric Stormcloak a vet.

Edited April 1, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[Kayyyleb]

 

@Sisterof, that is actually part of what I have been saying and Skyrim might not even be able to defend its borders and has very little hope of invading anywhere.

Summerset Isle hasn't been faced with invasion and, in the years since the Great War, has been able to make preparations, gather intelligence and do the groundwork for an invasion of any or all of the Imperial provinces. but the AD don't need to invade yet. they are best served letting the Nords kill each other and any Imperials or Bretons who happen to be caught up in the fighting.

they are in no hurry as they get stronger while the Empire and Skyrim get weaker.

 

 

There are three passes, choke points that the AD would have to pass through in order to get into Skyrim. The Stormcloaks show they know how to use guerrilla tactics, so the AD has to chase the guerrillas through the jagged, rocky, steep, ice-covered, mountains and face the harshest climate, winter wise, in Tamriel and fight an uphill battle. If they were to get into the pass the Nords could blockade the pass with just a few soldiers, like Thermopylae, aka the Spartan 300. Or the Nords could block off the pass with an avalanche or rocks, then ambush the elves and either wipe them out or severely weaken them. Or they could cut them off from their supply lines and starve them out. Its not like the world we live in, borders can be crossed, so the Nords could attack the elves in the passes from the other side.

The AD has to do nothing of the sort. You don't conquer a country by chasing small bands of annoyances around in the mountain. You siege and capture their cities and force them to fight on your terms. The elves aren't idiots and are not going to go walking into ambushes and fighting on unfavorable terrain when a very simple alternative is available. Besides, setting up a phalanx in a mountain pass works great until the elves start throwing fireballs into your formations. Immobile, tightly-grouped formations of the sort used to block off choke points are highly vulnerable to such attacks.

 

I daresay if I were an AD commander, taking the mountain passes would be by far the easiest place to crush them and exactly where I'd want them to bottle up. I'd just march into Skyrim on the charred corpses of the Nords who thought we'd just mindless throw ourselves at them. Destruction magic is far less effective in a wide open battlefield, so I'd be fighting all my battles in mountain passes or sieges where I have the advantage and the Nords can't maneuver.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

 

 

@Sisterof, that is actually part of what I have been saying and Skyrim might not even be able to defend its borders and has very little hope of invading anywhere.

Summerset Isle hasn't been faced with invasion and, in the years since the Great War, has been able to make preparations, gather intelligence and do the groundwork for an invasion of any or all of the Imperial provinces. but the AD don't need to invade yet. they are best served letting the Nords kill each other and any Imperials or Bretons who happen to be caught up in the fighting.

they are in no hurry as they get stronger while the Empire and Skyrim get weaker.

 

 

There are three passes, choke points that the AD would have to pass through in order to get into Skyrim. The Stormcloaks show they know how to use guerrilla tactics, so the AD has to chase the guerrillas through the jagged, rocky, steep, ice-covered, mountains and face the harshest climate, winter wise, in Tamriel and fight an uphill battle. If they were to get into the pass the Nords could blockade the pass with just a few soldiers, like Thermopylae, aka the Spartan 300. Or the Nords could block off the pass with an avalanche or rocks, then ambush the elves and either wipe them out or severely weaken them. Or they could cut them off from their supply lines and starve them out. Its not like the world we live in, borders can be crossed, so the Nords could attack the elves in the passes from the other side.

The AD has to do nothing of the sort. You don't conquer a country by chasing small bands of annoyances around in the mountain. You siege and capture their cities and force them to fight on your terms. The elves aren't idiots and are not going to go walking into ambushes and fighting on unfavorable terrain when a very simple alternative is available. Besides, setting up a phalanx in a mountain pass works great until the elves start throwing fireballs into your formations. Immobile, tightly-grouped formations of the sort used to block off choke points are highly vulnerable to such attacks.

 

I daresay if I were an AD commander, taking the mountain passes would be by far the easiest place to crush them and exactly where I'd want them to bottle up. I'd just march into Skyrim on the charred corpses of the Nords who thought we'd just mindless throw ourselves at them. Destruction magic is far less effective in a wide open battlefield, so I'd be fighting all my battles in mountain passes or sieges where I have the advantage and the Nords can't maneuver.

 

 

On the way through the pass the Nords could harass the AD's army. Decreasing Moral and picking them off little by little. This wouldnt be all the forces of the Nords. And I would imagine the AD wouldnt be so foolish as to send all their forces into one pass.

 

Aside from in game logistics, the Nords have shown in the past that they have a formidable military. So if they AD makes it threw the passes they wont be able to just take a city so easily. And maneuvering siege machines through the passes wont be so easy, considering how narrow they are, the guerrillas could simply destroy the machines and keep the elves from making them.Plus using siege machines in a pass would be highly ineffective.

 

The Nords know how to block magic with a shield. Not completely but it lessons the force of the magic being put onto the Nords. It is a skill in game and can be taught. Plus the Nords arent incapable of learning magic, as much as they dislike it. The "Heroic Nord Legions" were not annihilated during the war, if it were so easy to kill them with magic, how then, did they survive and defeat the elven forces. They did meat "Stiff resistance" but prevailed.

 

This is all assuming that the elves do, indeed, have an army ready to invade.