Imperial VS Stormcloak

[RighthandofSithis]

 

also look at the Chinese Empire. 24 dynasties over 4000 years (2100BC to 1911AD) including almost 100 years with a foriegn dynasty ruling the Chinese Empire (Yuan Dynasty 1279 to 1368)

 

every change of dynasty was a bloody affair but the Empire survived.

 

the Mede dynasty is over but a new one will emerge to rule the Empire and a period of prosperity and peace will ensue

 

 

Sorry but, that's like saying the Empire in Tamriel would survive if the Aldmeri Dominion conquered the whole continent. There might still be an empire in this case but definitely not the Empire we currently talk about - and even that is simplifying it immensely (and make it more like 2000 years than 4000, everything else is still heavily disputed as far as I know).

 

Yeah, the Warring States Period only ended around 200 BC.

Edited May 2, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[MightyZ0G]

point 1. they haven't taken it yet so the Imperial army is not cut off but even if they did, the Empire has troops in the Reach and outside it so they could attack the Forsworn from both sides if they needed to.

 

point 2. RL view of independence for the reach is irrelevent even though it is commendable and OOC for a Stormcloak :)

 

point 3. I should have said "it isn't the presence of Nordic forces that have the Reachmen confined to guerilla tactics as the Reach is under Imperial control and therefore the military force there is Imperial (even if they are Nords)

 

point 4. according to the UESPWiki Lore section on the Forsworn "The Forsworn still remember the cruelty of Ulfric and seek vengeance against him, and all Nords, as a result." which they could only do if they fought all the way from Markarth to Windhelm killing any Nords who crossed their path.

 

point 5 & 6. that is not ignoring the dialectics of the Empire's state and point 6 which you didn't comment on shows why. it is the dynastic cycle within the Empire which has already happened in Tamriel on more than 1 occasion and there is no reason why it shouldn't happen again.

 

to save you googling here is the dynastic cycle

1. A new ruler unites China, founds a new dynasty, and gains the Mandate of Heaven.
2. China, under the new dynasty, achieves prosperity.
3. The population increases.
4. Corruption becomes rampant in the imperial court, and the empire begins to enter decline and instability.
5. A natural disaster wipes out farm land. The disaster normally would not have been a problem; however, together with the corruption and overpopulation, it causes famine.
6. The famine causes the population to rebel and a civil war ensues.
7. The ruler loses the Mandate of Heaven.
8. The population decreases because of the violence.
9. China goes through a warring states period.
10. One state emerges victorious.
11. The state starts a new empire.
12. The empire gains the Mandate of Heaven

this cycle repeated for 4000 years if you go back to the earliest dynasty in China. substitute war with foriegn power or just corruption of the rulers for natural disaster destroying farm land and causing famine and it fits the cycle of any empire. the situation in Tamriel is heading into the warring states period and a new Emperor and dynasty will emerge.

 

point 7. the dismissal of the sea route is based on a totally different situation and has no bearing on the situation considering that the Nords invaded Skyrim by sea in the first place.

also, a Nordic phalanx is not immune to fire magic and will become so much charred meat in a matter of minutes, especially if they are in a confined place such as a pass.

don't forget that, because of Ulfric, the Thalmor already have a foothold in Skyrim and have been able to reconnoitre the area extensively and may even have advance forces and stockpiles of supplies in place ready for the invasion.

 

point 8. saying that it has already been discussed doesn't mean that it isn't relevent.

being able to concentrate your forces along a short border is better than having to spread them thin over a long border and it helps to have allies rather than standing alone.

 

point 9. but America had just come out of "The Great War" but was on the winning side and what about the depression of 1920/21 or the recession of 1924 or the recession of 1927 and the start of the great depression in 1929? the USA was able to cope with all that and some very violent gang wars.

 

point 10. it is not ignoring dialectics. it is part of the dynastic cycle and after the warring states period there will be a new emperor crowned in much the same way as TM and every emperor who founded a dynadty. also the loss of provinces and Umbriel happened before TM became emperor (confirming the dynastic cycle) and Ulfric and the Stormcloaks were released between 4E 176 and 4E180 but Wayrest falls to Corsairs in 4E 188 (and this isn't the first time that Wayrest is taken by pirates) and the gang war in Bravil also starts in 4E 188.

apart from a statue in Bravil, the only notable damage done is to the Dark Brotherhood sanctuaries. maybe the Morag Tong were involved somewhere in the background, especially in Bravil where the Night Mother's crypt was raided and the Listener was killed (assassinated?)

 

point 11. a Dragon Break is possible but I think most fans of TESV want to kick some Thalmor butt and Bethesda are in the business of making money and so I think TESVI will see the Dominion ruling Tamriel so that we get to fight them :)

[MightyZ0G]

 

also look at the Chinese Empire. 24 dynasties over 4000 years (2100BC to 1911AD) including almost 100 years with a foriegn dynasty ruling the Chinese Empire (Yuan Dynasty 1279 to 1368)

 

every change of dynasty was a bloody affair but the Empire survived.

 

the Mede dynasty is over but a new one will emerge to rule the Empire and a period of prosperity and peace will ensue

 

 

Sorry but, that's like saying the Empire in Tamriel would survive if the Aldmeri Dominion conquered the whole continent. There might still be an empire in this case but definitely not the Empire we currently talk about - and even that is simplifying it immensely (and make it more like 2000 years than 4000, everything else is still heavily disputed as far as I know).

 

but the Empire in Tamriel has been exactly like that but with dynasties lasting much longer than those in RL and even if you ignore the dynasties from around 2000BC until 200BC it still demonstrates that empires can survive even after being invaded and ruled by a foriegn power for almost a century.

 

 

 

Yeah, the Warring States Period only ended around 200 BC.

 

no, a warring states period ended around 200BC and there was a warring states period at the end of each dynasty, the winner of which bacame the dynasty that ruled the empire until the next warring states period

[letthehammerfall]

I didn't read all the pages of this topic, I didn't played TES before Skyrim, but I'll share my thoughts here. It's obvious that the Empire is collapsing, but, as Mede Dinasty ends, another dinasty starts. If Stormcloaks wins, Skyrim will become independent and obviously weak. If Ulfric starts another dinasty, becoming High King, what makes anyone think that they would stop there? They hate Elves before Thalmor, what made me worry about help him ascend as HK. Thinking the way that the new Emperor should be the Dragonborn, what makes anyone think that Ulfric would bend his knees and don't make any move to get this throne, as he knows the Thu'um too? Ulfric is an insurgent because Thalmor manipulated him into it, and became uncooperative. So, he was cooperative once, deceived by the Thalmor and their plans.

 

Looking the other side, with a weak Empire, becomes harder to side with it. Following the example of Hammerfell, which sucessful expelled the Thalmor after rejecting the White Gold Concordat and fighting 5 years until the Thalmor's withdraw , why Skyrim can't do the same? Considering that nords are great warriors, why not? They're motivated by their culture, religion. Thalmor messed with a nord tradition, by denying Talos as the ninth deity. Thinking this way, Ulfric and his will is needed to do what is needed to free Skyrim from Thalmor.

 

Still I think that Thalmor manipulated everything and doesn't matter which side you choose, Thalmor is behind both and Bethesda didn't told you what's going on on the backstage of both sides. It's up to you to figure out what's happening and what you'll do with what's happening.

Edited May 2, 2013 by letthehammerfall

[ImperialMan2]

I side with the Imperials because the empire is a civilized civilization and the storm cloaks just userped the throne.

[Anska]

Ehm, Zog, please don't get me wrong, but you have just managed to confuse me completely. Are you saying that the Empire (in Tamriel) is currently in such a bad shape that it will probably get overrun either by an internal (e.g. a new Emperor) or an external force (e.g. the Thalmor), which afterwards will create a new empire from the ruins of the old one just under a new leadership?

 

I am just asking, because what you sketched out as a dynastic cycle above matches both the "spiral of collapse" and the "revolutionary situation" very nicely and it also is consistent with the current situation of Cyrodiil described by RightHandofSithis on the last two pages - all of which you seemed to disagree with before. So I am confused whether you changed your mind and I just didn't notice it or if I understood something utterly wrong.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Anska

[RighthandofSithis]

point 1. they haven't taken it yet so the Imperial army is not cut off but even if they did, the Empire has troops in the Reach and outside it so they could attack the Forsworn from both sides if they needed to.

 

point 2. RL view of independence for the reach is irrelevent even though it is commendable and OOC for a Stormcloak :smile:

 

point 3. I should have said "it isn't the presence of Nordic forces that have the Reachmen confined to guerilla tactics as the Reach is under Imperial control and therefore the military force there is Imperial (even if they are Nords)

 

point 4. according to the UESPWiki Lore section on the Forsworn "The Forsworn still remember the cruelty of Ulfric and seek vengeance against him, and all Nords, as a result." which they could only do if they fought all the way from Markarth to Windhelm killing any Nords who crossed their path.

 

point 5 & 6. that is not ignoring the dialectics of the Empire's state and point 6 which you didn't comment on shows why. it is the dynastic cycle within the Empire which has already happened in Tamriel on more than 1 occasion and there is no reason why it shouldn't happen again.

 

to save you googling here is the dynastic cycle

1. A new ruler unites China, founds a new dynasty, and gains the Mandate of Heaven.
2. China, under the new dynasty, achieves prosperity.
3. The population increases.
4. Corruption becomes rampant in the imperial court, and the empire begins to enter decline and instability.
5. A natural disaster wipes out farm land. The disaster normally would not have been a problem; however, together with the corruption and overpopulation, it causes famine.
6. The famine causes the population to rebel and a civil war ensues.
7. The ruler loses the Mandate of Heaven.
8. The population decreases because of the violence.
9. China goes through a warring states period.
10. One state emerges victorious.
11. The state starts a new empire.
12. The empire gains the Mandate of Heaven

this cycle repeated for 4000 years if you go back to the earliest dynasty in China. substitute war with foriegn power or just corruption of the rulers for natural disaster destroying farm land and causing famine and it fits the cycle of any empire. the situation in Tamriel is heading into the warring states period and a new Emperor and dynasty will emerge.

 

point 7. the dismissal of the sea route is based on a totally different situation and has no bearing on the situation considering that the Nords invaded Skyrim by sea in the first place.

also, a Nordic phalanx is not immune to fire magic and will become so much charred meat in a matter of minutes, especially if they are in a confined place such as a pass.

don't forget that, because of Ulfric, the Thalmor already have a foothold in Skyrim and have been able to reconnoitre the area extensively and may even have advance forces and stockpiles of supplies in place ready for the invasion.

 

point 8. saying that it has already been discussed doesn't mean that it isn't relevent.

being able to concentrate your forces along a short border is better than having to spread them thin over a long border and it helps to have allies rather than standing alone.

 

point 9. but America had just come out of "The Great War" but was on the winning side and what about the depression of 1920/21 or the recession of 1924 or the recession of 1927 and the start of the great depression in 1929? the USA was able to cope with all that and some very violent gang wars.

 

point 10. it is not ignoring dialectics. it is part of the dynastic cycle and after the warring states period there will be a new emperor crowned in much the same way as TM and every emperor who founded a dynadty. also the loss of provinces and Umbriel happened before TM became emperor (confirming the dynastic cycle) and Ulfric and the Stormcloaks were released between 4E 176 and 4E180 but Wayrest falls to Corsairs in 4E 188 (and this isn't the first time that Wayrest is taken by pirates) and the gang war in Bravil also starts in 4E 188.

apart from a statue in Bravil, the only notable damage done is to the Dark Brotherhood sanctuaries. maybe the Morag Tong were involved somewhere in the background, especially in Bravil where the Night Mother's crypt was raided and the Listener was killed (assassinated?)

 

point 11. a Dragon Break is possible but I think most fans of TESV want to kick some Thalmor butt and Bethesda are in the business of making money and so I think TESVI will see the Dominion ruling Tamriel so that we get to fight them :smile:

 

Point 1. Actually, if you visit fort Sunguard prior to completing the Civil war, they have indeed. Also, if you look at the strategic positions of the Forsworn (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Forsworn#Occupied_Areas), you will see that they have near completely (save Sunguard in the CW) cut Markarth off. the Control the Ridge with Whiterun (ie, the high ground), and every redoubt and fort along the roads in ever direction.

 

Point 2. Cool :smile:. Although it shouldn't be surprising, as I've never hidden the fact that I'm a marxist.

 

Point 3.Okay, but that doesn't suggest that ulfrics forces would be any worse than that of the Empire.

 

Point 4. They want the nords out of the reach, True, and they want to 'punish' the Nords, but speaking to them (ie, in Cidhna mine), they state they are concerned with liberating their own lands, not taking over all of Skyrim. Like most national Liberation movements.

 

Points 5 and 6. Okay, firstly, i don"t feel that claiming a 500 year civil war between 5 or so states maintained the Empire. Also, if you are saying that for the Empire to survive, it must be rebuilt, i agree. That, however, means it will be left to the Mercy of the Dominion (already well established and seemingly stable). Thus, if we want to rebuild the Empire, we need to start in a secure, defendable position. Oddly enough, Skyrim has indeed been the state that begins Cyrodiilic Empires in the past (From Alessia, to Reman, to Septim).

 

But you nonetheless agree that the current state of the Empire is horrible?

 

Point 7. The Nords migrated to Skyrim, ie they, as a group of barbarians, managed to live off the land. Also, we don't know how large the Nordic armies where (but the number '500' could give an idea) and they also decided to move away in small groups to do their own thing (allowing them to forage for a smaller number). it is also suggested that the Nords did not come to Skyrim in one big bloc, but in a series of migrations.

 

Compare this to a coordinated invasion, that would be unable to bring civilians in order to save space for the troops and supplies (and what Altmer would want to live in Skyrim?), nor could it spare any troops or supplies to establish a colony. True, they could forage, but can the pale (the only hold they could even hope of landing in) sustain an entire army? They could break out into Whiterun, and effectively box themselves in the center of Skyrim (and there are no guarantees that that would maintain an entire army and the current populace either). So they would need to maintain supplies for a long, protracted war by a sea route across and entire continent. That is the worst logistical move one can make (as over time, the navy would wear thin, and it would become incredibly expensive).

 

Also, the tight space of Pale Pass would actually minimize the effect of any Aldmeri Fireballs, meaning the front ranks could be decimated (although the book, killing before you're killed states a trained shieldsman could deflect that magic), but the Aldmeri couldn't rely upon magic forever.

 

And Elenwen states the justicars in Skyrim are far too limited. They'd be expelled/killed within a month of Ulfrics victory.

 

Point 8. So you admit that pale Pass is more defensible than all of Cyrodiil's border with the Dominion?

 

Point 9. But the US hadn't been torn apart like France or Germany (allowing the Permanent Arms theory to kick in), nor had it lost the majority of its states to a hostile force on its border. Also, the US was only in WW1 for a short time.

 

Point 10. Cicero states, in person ALL of the Imperial province is ravaged by strife. In his Diary, he states SO MANY cities have fallen to violence. That is the important point to recognize, that the troubles plaguing Bravil are not isolated.

 

And I wouldn't say the MT is involved. They seem to be having enough trouble in Morrowind.

 

Point 11. I think the Equilibrium between the two forces is more marketable. It adds tension, and makes people want more and more. Horay for the profit motive :down:.

 

Seriously, I don't mind that idea. It adds drama and mystery to the game. What will happen after the Main Quest?

[Moody]

Points 5 and 6. Okay, firstly, i don"t feel that claiming a 500 year civil war between 5 or so states maintained the Empire. Also, if you are saying that for the Empire to survive, it must be rebuilt, i agree. That, however, means it will be left to the Mercy of the Dominion (already well established and seemingly stable). Thus, if we want to rebuild the Empire, we need to start in a secure, defendable position. Oddly enough, Skyrim has indeed been the state that begins Cyrodiilic Empires in the past (From Alessia, to Reman, to Septim).

 

But you nonetheless agree that the current state of the Empire is horrible?

 

 

Not quite right on the Lore front

 

Alessia was a leader of a tribe of Cyrodiilic Humans - she succeeded in her rebellion against the Ayleids in part thanks to an Alliance with the Nords of Skyrim - she had however already seized control of the East of Cyrodiil before that alliance - the Alessian Empire was of Cyridiilic origin.

 

Reman's origins are unknown (one book which suggests Sancre Tor but it is considered allegorical) however he created the second Empire by uniting the Kingdoms of Cyrodiil - again very likely the second empire was of Cyridiilic origin.

 

Talos aka Tiber Septim did not found the third empire - he was serving as a general to the man who did Emporer Cuhlecain, who united Cyrodiil (for the third time). Cuhlecain was previously the king of the Colovian Estate within Cyrodiil.

 

Cuhlecain was assassinated by the Bretons and Talos (wounded in the assassination and losing the power of the voice) assumed the throne and then went on to Conquer the entire of Tamriel (the only person to have done so).

 

While we cant be sure about Reman's Empire (because there is virtually nothing about the man in the Lore) both the first and third empires were founded by uniting Cyrodiil and were both founded by natives of Cyrodiil.

[RighthandofSithis]

 

Points 5 and 6. Okay, firstly, i don"t feel that claiming a 500 year civil war between 5 or so states maintained the Empire. Also, if you are saying that for the Empire to survive, it must be rebuilt, i agree. That, however, means it will be left to the Mercy of the Dominion (already well established and seemingly stable). Thus, if we want to rebuild the Empire, we need to start in a secure, defendable position. Oddly enough, Skyrim has indeed been the state that begins Cyrodiilic Empires in the past (From Alessia, to Reman, to Septim).

 

But you nonetheless agree that the current state of the Empire is horrible?

 

 

Not quite right on the Lore front

 

Alessia was a leader of a tribe of Cyrodiilic Humans - she succeeded in her rebellion against the Ayleids in part thanks to an Alliance with the Nords of Skyrim - she had however already seized control of the East of Cyrodiil before that alliance - the Alessian Empire was of Cyridiilic origin.

 

Reman's origins are unknown (one book which suggests Sancre Tor but it is considered allegorical) however he created the second Empire by uniting the Kingdoms of Cyrodiil - again very likely the second empire was of Cyridiilic origin.

 

Talos aka Tiber Septim did not found the third empire - he was serving as a general to the man who did Emporer Cuhlecain, who united Cyrodiil (for the third time). Cuhlecain was previously the king of the Colovian Estate within Cyrodiil.

 

Cuhlecain was assassinated by the Bretons and Talos (wounded in the assassination and losing the power of the voice) assumed the throne and then went on to Conquer the entire of Tamriel (the only person to have done so).

 

While we cant be sure about Reman's Empire (because there is virtually nothing about the man in the Lore) both the first and third empires were founded by uniting Cyrodiil and were both founded by natives of Cyrodiil.

 

Reman was given most of Skyrim by the Akaviri from my knowledge. In that sense, it would have greatly helped build the Empire.

 

With Talos, most nords went into his service after Sancre Tor, with only a few holds resisting him.

 

As for Allessia, her Empire really only became a power after the alliance with the Nords. They engaged most of the Alyied forces at White-Gold Tower.

[Moody]

I would agree Skyrim has played an important part in the founding and expansions of the Empires - a Kingmaker of sorts - but your statement was it "began" them - it didn't the origins of 2 (and possible all three) were always Cyrodiilic.

 

In Talos's case the Nords only joined behind him after Cuhlecain's Empire had already been founded - they invaded it as part of a Breton/Nord Alliance and then swapped sides when they witnessed General Talos use the voice against them.