Imperial VS Stormcloak

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Ulfric did what he had to. Im not saying that its okay to kill civilians but Titus Mede did it, Talos did it, now Ulfric has done it. Hell, Julius Ceaser did it.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

And the Nords oppose that. Yes the reach was an Ind Kingdom, but only peaceful according to the Imperial scholar who wrote about it. He also wrote "Madmen of the Reach" and "The Bear of Markarth" so I would have to say he has a bias. Some data, but no accounts from both sides. Just one.

 

If you stood on principles then I would have to ask what they might be?

 

Mine -

Freedom

Righteousness

Honor

Honesty

Integrity

 

 

The Empire stepped all over my principles and I wont sit idly by and allow them to continue doing it. I didnt partake in the Markarth incident and I dont necessarily agree with it but I support the Nords of Skyrim and I stand by my principles.

 

Hammerfell - Skyrim alliance.

Morrowind wont be attacking anyone anytime soon. And If so it will be the Argonians. House Redoran, the most powerful house in Morrowind, likes the Nords and is friendly with Skyrim. They have no problem with the Stormcloaks, however they dislike the Empire.

High Rock, Galmar is asking for their help. If they wanted parts of Skyrim then they should have intervened during the Civil War.

Cyrodiil - is fighting Skyrim

 

The Stormcloaks will take the fight to the elves. And I've stated before how hard it would be to invade Skyrim.

Edited March 14, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Wow, "The Bear of Markarth" was the book. Haha, oops. Well anyway he's an Imperial Scholar who is obviously opposed to Imperial and Nordic Lore and stories alike. He argues like a rapist and makes radical claims and attempts to utterly disprove all things about the Reachmen, but as we see in Skyrim, They attack you on sight, they pillage and rape. They are barbaric. Savages. Just like how Arrianus Arius tries to disprove. Many would say "They werent the Forsworn until Ulfric attacked them" - But then why wouldnt they be forsworn after Talos defeated them? Its not only unreliable as a book but it has holes in its own argument. I have holes in mine as well and I do my best to patch them up when I find them. And I dont think they peacefully took control of Markarth. History shows us that the Nords dont just give up their land so easily. The Jarl of the Reach died and his son took the Throne and Ulfric won it back for him. Then was jailed for it. For exchanging the Reach for free worship of Talos. He served his time, and his father died. Then he began the rebellion after he returned to find how his people were living. They asked for this war.

Edited March 14, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[LithiumPower]

I'm happy you posted and I'm sorry for having to call you out. I wish you could have been involved in this debate earlier so we could discuss this properly and not open up the arguments again at this late stage.

 

If you could skim back some pages, or search for Ulfric, Markarth in this thread you may be able to find the discussion of the Markarth Incident earlier.

 

Unfortunately, it appears some of your information is incorrect. The only mention of Ulfric's supposed atrocities upon the Reach comes up in Arrianius Arius' The Bear of Markarth which is not only is obvious in its bias but the information it contains is uncorroborated by NPC accounts. Madanach & Co, give you a very thorough account of these supposed atrocities(and I would be hesitant to believe them outright because some of their dialogue is self-contradictory and the Reachmen in the marketplace consider them criminals and brigands) and they place the blame on the Jarl - who would be Jarl Igmund - not Ulfric who was never Jarl of Markarth.

 

Ulfric's father was not ill when he went to retake the Reach. Ulfric was in prison for a long time - possibly something like 10-15 years during which time his father died. The first thing Ulfric did when he was released was return to Windhelm where he was affirmed Jarl by the people. Then he attended Toryyg's moot and moved the motion for Skyrim's independence, which Toryyg promised to consider and never did. For some more years (Toryyg had been High King for at least a few years as evidenced by various dialogue) Ulfric made no move against him while the Thalmor continued to entrench themselves in the province until 4E201 (when the game begins) to finally challenge Toryyg to the throne. It was his only recourse as per the tradition of Skyrim - there's no parliament to impeach Toryyg, no fixed constitutional term to wait out until he's up for re-election. He's sitting there as a dictator for life once affirmed by the moot. To remove him, Ulfric's only choice was to challenge him. No he didn't want to negotiate with him any more as Sybille Stentor suggests he should have done. The time for negotiation was over. He had failed in his duty as High King.

 

Ulfric did not show up out of the blue one day while Toryyg was playing golf and shout him to pieces before he could say 'care to join'.

 

Returning to the problem of allowing the Reachmen freedom to practice their 'religion' is that their beliefs are an anathema to basic morality as understood by the rest of the society. It's not only Daedra worship, the Dunmer engage in that too but worship of 'evil' Daedra, like Namira. They practice cannibalism, they murder and re-animate people to make Briarhearts, they venerate the depraved Hagravens, engaging in human sacrifice to placate them. But it's their culture! Right, it is but it's the culture of all the other civilised races to put a stop to such barbarism. The reachmen have had hundreds of years to assimilate and give up these fouler aspects of their beliefs but they refuse to do so.

 

Secondly, the Nords have held the reach since Tiber Septim so by all rights it is now their land. By your argument, all the races of Tamriel should shove off and give the land back to the Hist because it was the Hist that had held it in the Dawn Era. Or the Imperials should let the Aldmeri Dominion walk all over them because Cyrodiil was originally inhabited by the Ayleids, the closest descendants of which are the Altmer. Maybe the Nords should ask the Redguard to hand over Hammerfell and go back to Yokuda. It's one thing when land is seized forcibly from a population that is still around to be dispossessed but those individuals are long gone - their descendants after so many generations and hundreds of years have no claim that can usurp actual ownership. That's how land law works. You have to stay in possession to retain valid ownership.

 

Finally, look up the discussion we had about imperial transgressions and on-going atrocities - the Thalmor are not the only ones with torture shacks and patrols rounding up dissenters. We don't have an objection to the Thalmor Embassy, but what is a Thalmor HQ doing in Castle Dour if the Legion is so opposed to them? Why is Elenwen a part of Legion diplomatic delegations if the Thalmor don't have oversight on Imperial governance and military matters? Ondolemar, Ancano - who gave them leave to flounce around Skyrim?

 

The Empire makes a lot of claims and even more empty promises. There is plenty of evidence in the game, and in lore books to expose these for the lies that they are.

[RighthandofSithis]

101 pages. I feel sort of stupid. I was even bidding farewell to my first Stormcloak V Imperial debate.

 

So I take it we carry on?

Edited March 14, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[RighthandofSithis]

 

 

Now, the Empire is certainly not what it once was. I count no less than (5 out of 9) entire provinces lost. Again, going back to the beginning, how were these provinces lost? And as Rising Threat I & II explain, the Thalmor (Rulers of Summerset) were behind EVERYTHING. Even perhaps Red Mountain. The world of Tamriel today, is of their making. How did the Thalmor do it? Why, by using a wedge of course with their agents working behind the scenes. Every province the Empire lost, has been due to Thalmor influence either direct or indirect.

 

Skyrim. Skyrim is the last major imperial province left. And it is major because it connects Highrock to Cyrodil and Cyrodil is probably still a mess. Losing Skyrim effectively kills the Empire and then you have the Kingdom of Highrock and the Kingdom of Cyrodil. As I have seen in real life, it much easier to fight one or two opponents at a time, compared to one great, united force. Ultimately, the Thalmor are behind the Civil War in Skyrim. They are using the same wedge they've used everywhere else. If Skyrim succeeds from the Empire, then you are GIVING them exactly what they want. Doesn't mean it's for better or worse but a Stormcloak Victory will give them the results they're looking for. It will be the end of the Empire and Skyrim will be weakened. Skyrim imports much of their food and essentials from Cyrodil. And just look at how Ulfric and the other Stormcloak Jarls treat their people and run their cities. The whole if they're not with us, then they're against us attitude. And God help you if you're an elf.

 

Ulfric. Ulfric was at least for a time, a Thalmor collaborator. Read the Thalmor Embassy Dossier and it will hint that somewhere between the time when Ulfric was let go and the ending of the Markarth incident, Ulfric was working for the Thalmor or they were his benefactors in some regards. Now, the Thalmor betrayed Ulfric at Markarth and ever since he has been uncooperative. But he is also listed as "dormant". The dossier is only one piece of the puzzle. There must be more to it for him to be dormant. But anytime Ulfric or almost any Stormcloak is in a tough spot when questioned in conversation, they just stop and start talking about how Talos was banned, Talos this, Talos that. I mean come on... I'm all for Freedom of Religion, but it seems like they're using the ban on Talos as a scape-goat to justify a lack of sound logic and reasoning. Remember, everyone had their little shrine to Talos until Ulfric started agitating about it. And the ban on Talos only prevented open worship of Talos, but people could still worship him in their personal lives, whether that be at home or amongst nature.

 

 

Finally, it is my conclusion the situation in Skyrim, like many things in life, will fix itself. Thalmor and Empire are not getting along and through a quest, the Emperor is going to "step down", allowing for change. Especially since ALL of the imperial leadership I've spoken with HATE THE THALMOR and WORSHIP TALOS in some way. Rikke, Tullius and the Jarl in Whiterun for example. The Empire is NOT a puppet state, it's just the wrong man is leading it and the Thalmor are very pushy. With the Emperor gone, you can bet that Concordant will soon be dissolved. It is only a matter of time until things go back to normal, as the Legion has promised. Basically, the legion is for Talos, but the Emperor is holding them back. But none of these things will change if the Emperor remains in power or if the Empire get's Destroyed by the Thalmor's agents & activities.

 

This is still the Empire of Tiber Septum and Talos as my judge and witness, I will not be the reason why.

 

 

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

 

3 out of 9 provinces remain, unless you include a ruined and hostile Morrowind. This in itself is to me, a suggestion at imperial weakness (going into the cycle of lose a province, lose money and troops, making you lose another province etc). Its sort of a domino effect.

 

As previously discussed, Skyrim is possibly capable of sustaining itself, and if necessary, can import foods from the Kingdoms of high Rock.

 

The Dossiers state their plan is to prolong the war. A victory to either side (unless they both collapse, or some such) ruins their plans.

 

Some resistance is better than no resistance.

[sisterof]

Another thing to bear in mind, that a lot of people seem to disregard, is that Skyrim's revolt is not just about not being able to worship Talos. It is about the drainage of resources, like the silver mines and the army, endlessly into the Empire - while the Empire lets the Thalmor run free and do its thing. Which includes kidnapping and torturing civilians. And it also shows absolutely no initiative to stand up against the Dominion any time soon. I reiterate, yet again, that perhaps we'd have this dissension even without the Thalmor threat - simply because the Empire is in ruins and dragging all its provinces down with it.

@Talos926: I too suggest you read up a few of the last pages, we've been through your arguments. I don't think it was rude at all for HighkingUlfricStormcloak to call you out on it - bear in mind people here have discussing this for a while and it's only respectful to check a bit of what's going on before posting something. Of course there's no need to read the whole stuff, but a bit would help. That said - welcome to the thread! Another thing I'd like to point out (and I did before in this thread) is that neither side is a paragon of justice and all that is right and good. There's no such thing in factions or characters, and in our case here we have no saints in the Civil War. It's a matter of what defects your character is willing to let pass, and for what ends (each side fights for a different end scenario).


@Lithium Flower: I think you missed my previous post about the document you're organizing. I'd repeat here then: I think it would be great if you linked it for us all to add/correct stuff and then start a new thread with it as the first post(s) so everyone that comes in later can have a good starting point. :smile:


Edit: Adding a welcome to our new user since I was the one being rude this time. XD

Edited March 14, 2013 by sisterof

[RighthandofSithis]

Another thing to bear in mind, that a lot of people seem to disregard, is that Skyrim's revolt is not just about not being able to worship Talos. It is about the drainage of resources, like the silver mines and the army, endlessly into the Empire - while the Empire lets the Thalmor run free and do its thing. Which includes kidnapping and torturing civilians. And it also shows absolutely no initiative to stand up against the Dominion any time soon. I reiterate, yet again, that perhaps we'd have this dissension even without the Thalmor threat - simply because the Empire is in ruins and dragging all its provinces down with it.

 

@Talos926: I too suggest you read up a few of the last pages, we've been through your arguments. I don't think it was rude at all for HighkingUlfricStormcloak to call you out on it - bear in mind people here have discussing this for a while and it's only respectful to check a bit of what's going on before posting something. Of course there's no need to read the whole stuff, but a bit would help. Another thing I'd like to point out (and I did before in this thread) is that neither side is a paragon of justice and all that is right and good. There's no such thing in factions or characters, and in our case here we have no saints in the Civil War. It's a matter of what defects your character is willing to let pass, and for what ends (each side fights for a different end scenario).

 

In the first paragraph, I will point out that Alvor, an imperial, states that abductions from the Thalmor happened BEFORE Ulfric's uprising. He feels it was even a major part of its beginning. So the Thalmor were in Skyrim, and enforcing the banning of Talos worship BEFORE Ulfric started waving his arms about it.

 

In fact, I can;t remember the source that said the Thalmor only came into Skyrim after the uprising began (unless you count Markarth). In Fact, the markarth incident suggests the Thalmor had a presence in Skyrim well before Toryggs assassination.

 

On the second paragraph, I feel we should not necessarily force newbies to read through pages of debate, but more explain briefly our past discussions to them, or address their points by saying 'As previous discussed' or some such.

Edited March 14, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[LithiumPower]

Cleared it with a mod! There is no post count limit, we can carry on the discussion as long as we like.

 

@sisterof, I had indeed missed your post. I'm not sure how relevant that document would be now that we're not closing the thread but I'm stilling making my brief and I'll share the first draft for everyone's input as soon as it has some shape.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Lithium Flower

[RighthandofSithis]

Cleared it with a mod! There is no post count limit, we can carry on the discussion as long as we like.

 

:dance: