Imperial VS Stormcloak

[LithiumPower]

I'm not sure what exactly you find objectionable and dishonest about my post. Are you claiming that Concise History is somehow exempt from author bias?

It's a former Legate's analysis and account of the Great War - the fact that Bethesda went through the trouble of adding a paragraph to the text to explain who the author was should give you a clue. It's not Bethesda's account of the Great War - such a thing does not and will never exist. There is no Word of God in TES. Did Anu and Padomay create the universe or was it the All-Maker like the Skaal believe. Did Lorkhan trick the Aedra and trap them on Mundus or did he persuade them to give up their immortality to create something bigger than themselves?

Is it really that hard to tell the difference between fact, opinion and conjecture? In-game canon tells us there was a war - that is a fact. It's a fact because it's verifiable in-universe. Plenty of sources corroborate that. In-game canon tells us there was a rebellion in Hammerfell - verifiable, plenty of sources that corroborate that. In-game canon tells us that a treaty known as the White Gold Concordat was signed between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion - same as above.

Fact - a large number of troops in the Hammerfell legion were discharged as invalids. This is not corroborated but it would be verifiable, nor is it controversial or disputed.

Fact - a large number of troops in the Hammerfell legion would be redguards - it doesn't state that categorically anywhere but it makes sense because the legion is drawn from the population and is corroborated by the demographic composition of the Skyrim legion.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to put together that the redguard troops in the Hammerfell legion would not want to abandon their homes threatened by Dominion forces and march to Cyrodiil.

Perhaps Decianus really felt sorry for them and was unwilling to sell them down the river like he'd been ordered to do and wrote them off as invalids - which is Quintius' analysis which I did not dispute. I said this particular line is demonstrative of Quintius' editorial because it is his analysis. It is not fact. It is unverifiable, it is untestable, it is conjecture as to the state of mind of Decianus. And it doesn't even matter because whatever his reasons, according to Quintius himself, Decianus acted contrary to his explicit orders. The Empire had nothing to do with Decianus' actions.

Maybe his Hammerfell troops were perfectly happy to condemn their families and homes to the invasion and follow Decianus into all 16 planes of Oblivion and he told them to stay behind and protect their own - none of that detracts from the fact that the Empire ordered Hammerfell legions to abandon Hammerfell and many, many legionnaires refused, stayed back in Hammerfell and continued the fight.

Kradus claimed that this line is somehow demonstrative of bleeding heart imperials leaving soldiers they'd been ordered to march to the Imperial City's defence as invalids in Hammerfell. I merely pointed out that it was far, far more likely that Decianus' redguard troops mutinied and he discharged them as invalids (for whatever personal reasons, I don't care) than some kind of imperial back-door policy to keep Hammerfell defended.

Edit: I missed Kradus' previous post and would like to reply to it.

Less than half of Skyrim - how? Please explain this logic when fully half the holds are in open revolt and the rest have plenty of sympathetic nords among the population and Jarls that imperials themselves claim have been bought by Imperial coin. Morrowind is governed by House Redoran which has nothing but contempt for the Empire and want to have nothing to do with them. The Markarth incident and the birth of the stormcloaks occurred in 176 within a year of the WGC.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Lithium Flower

[kradus]

I explained before that only a few npcs pronounce themselfs pro stormcloaks, even in stormcloak holds. Out of the whole deal, they are a minority. If you feel that the jarls reflect the will of the hold, then Whiterun ultimately sides with the empire, starting out as neutral with simpathy towards the empire, while Winterhold barely has a population. If you consider the stormcloaks themselfs, you must also consider the nords who serve in the legions.

So, yes, less then half of skyrim supports the stormcloaks.

[RighthandofSithis]

I explained before that only a few npcs pronounce themselfs pro stormcloaks, even in stormcloak holds. Out of the whole deal, they are a minority. If you feel that the jarls reflect the will of the hold, then Whiterun ultimately sides with the empire, starting out as neutral with simpathy towards the empire, while Winterhold barely has a population. If you consider the stormcloaks themselfs, you must also consider the nords who serve in the legions.

So, yes, less then half of skyrim supports the stormcloaks.

 

 

After shifting through pages all the way back to Page 57 (oer something), i've finally found my rough (ie, I made it in a few minutes, and probably missed some) list of Stormcloak Supporters represented in game:

 

-Bulfrek (who is upset when the Empire takes over dawnstar)

-Bolund

-Solaf

-Lod

-Ogmund (or it is implied he does)

-Thonnir (or he implies that some residents of Morthal have already joined the Stomrlcokas, and that it is not an alien idea)

-Roggvir

-Greta

-Sinmir

-Almost everyone in Windhelm (with the obvious exception of Argonians and Dunmer)

-'Some' people in what was Helgen (Indicated by Tullius' comments)

-Gerdur

-Hilde (Implied by her comments)

-Sven (perhaps, implied by her mothers comments)

 

That was simply from a quick skim through the list of NPCs. There may be more. You may also notice that i did not mention any generic guards, nor did I list jarls or politicians.

 

Now, could you please present a list of named Imperial Supporters (not neutrals), who aren't high ranking politicians. I admit, a significant number of Dawnstar's population are opposed to the Rebellion (which is compared to high support from it from Falkreath).

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Whiterun is the fault line of the war, its 50 50 not one or the other. Half the city wants Stormcloak rulers and the other Imperial, obviously bethesda isnt going to have every single NPC have dialogue for the war. And also saying that very few NPC's claim to be pro Stormcloak, the same can be said for Imperials.

 

Balgruuf decided to side with the Empire because he has a grudge against Ulfric, not for the good of his people. Ulfric was chosen by the Greybeards rather than Balgruuf, thats why he dislikes Ulfric. He made a poor choice for a poor reason.

 

This isnt relevant but it made me laugh. One of the other privates in my company said "Everyone who's not dead is alive."

 

I laughed so hard I cried when he said that.

Edited March 17, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[kradus]

The point of the matter at hand is that less than half of skyrim support the stormcloaks. 'Neutrals' remain citizens of the empire unlike them, and didn't ask for the rebelion.

It matches the fact that most of the empire wanted peace by the time Cyrodiil was liberated, which is what brought this on.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

They (Being the Emperor and company) didnt have a lot of foresight into thinking "Maybe were pissing everyone off."

 

He could have very well have demanded better terms. The Thalmor were bluffing with their strength. It was worse than the Empire's. If they had any more forces they would have sent them into Hammerfell (They sent more after the treaty was signed because it's what was left of their forces) or to reinforce the Army in Cyrodiil.

 

The Empire however had a large number of Nords and the remaining Imperial troops. They could have marched on Alinor, but the Emperor took the cowardly way out and surrendered. The AD's army was annihilated and almost completely gone. The Empire had 1 maybe 2 Nord legions and another consisting of Imperials. The AD had one army left, which was not at full strength.

[RighthandofSithis]

The point of the matter at hand is that less than half of skyrim support the stormcloaks. 'Neutrals' remain citizens of the empire unlike them, and didn't ask for the rebelion.

It matches the fact that most of the empire wanted peace by the time Cyrodiil was liberated, which is what brought this on.

 

I think that the Empire would be despised by neutrals for the sheer fact that they continue the war.

 

Neutrals want to stay out, but the Empire agitates them as much as the Stormcloaks. Ask around Dragon bridge about it.

[RighthandofSithis]

The Empire however had a large number of Nords and the remaining Imperial troops. They could have marched on Alinor, but the Emperor took the cowardly way out and surrendered. The AD's army was annihilated and almost completely gone. The Empire had 1 maybe 2 Nord legions and another consisting of Imperials. The AD had one army left, which was not at full strength.

 

I wouldn't say that. He barely had any legions left at even half strength. Although he could have created a few by joining them together.

 

However, a legion is 5000 men (judging by Ancient Rome), and Tullius says he is having severe difficulties putting down the rebellion with only a 'handful of legions' (albeit, the Stormcloaks are probably utilising Guerrilla, alongside conventional, tactics), so I'd conclude that Titus wasn't able to march on the DOminion following Red Ring. He could have been a better diplomat, though (he could have been MUCH better).

[sisterof]

@Lithium Flower: Yessss, you're working on the synopsis thing! I only noticed the signature now, despite it being... quite huge. Good job so far. Perhaps it would be good to add the point of "at least half Skyrim doesn't want anything to do with the Stormcloaks and only wants peace". I'm sure you know the counter arguments to that too. :biggrin: And maybe address the "Ulfric is a hypocrite - he surrenders in Helgen". Oh, another one... "the Stormcloak Rebellion is all about being pissed over the ban of Talos from the Empire's pantheon, so a huge overreaction while several Imperials worshiped him discreetly." If you want to discuss any of those things and don't want to clutter the thread, feel free to pm!

@EVERYONE: Read Lithium Flower's signatuuuuure! For great justice! Organizing both sides' ideas helps us all keeping the discussion clear, and also helps anyone who comes along to quickly catch up. Hmm how can I make people read this... <browses through smiley list>. Oh yes. I hope this Psyduck will be enough to get everyone's attention: beware the Psyduck! :psyduck:

[fraquar]

Whiterun is the fault line of the war, its 50 50 not one or the other. Half the city wants Stormcloak rulers and the other Imperial, obviously bethesda isnt going to have every single NPC have dialogue for the war. And also saying that very few NPC's claim to be pro Stormcloak, the same can be said for Imperials.

 

Balgruuf decided to side with the Empire because he has a grudge against Ulfric, not for the good of his people. Ulfric was chosen by the Greybeards rather than Balgruuf, thats why he dislikes Ulfric. He made a poor choice for a poor reason.

 

This isnt relevant but it made me laugh. One of the other privates in my company said "Everyone who's not dead is alive."

 

I laughed so hard I cried when he said that.

Bam, right there.