Imperial VS Stormcloak

[LithiumPower]

I'd request everyone, especially our pro-imperial friends - Kayyleb, Kradus (I'm sorry I'm forgetting someone I know) please take a look at the document linked in my signature and use the google comment feature to give me some feed back on any points I may have missed in summarising the Imperial arguments. The more feedback I get, the better the final document will reflect the Imperial arguments.

 

There's no point giving me feedback here, because I might miss it but just right click and add a comment on the document itself - you don't have to sign into google, you can comment anonymously. I'd especially appreciate links to corroborating dialogue or in-game texts. UESP.net or The Imperial Library is preferred to elderscroll wiki.

And not just imperials, stormcloaks too. Everyone!

Stormcloak arguments to follow soon.

@sisterof

Thanks for the shout out!

 

Edit: Okay, one thing I want to clarify right away is that this is supposed to resemble a FAQ - I've tried to include some of the more commonly encountered newbie arguments which might not be as refined as the ones we've achieved here but the idea is to encompass what may be crossing a fresh participant's mind and addressing it right away - that's why the heading might be OTT (especially concerning the frequently encountered objections to Ulfric) but the main write up can be refined/tweaked to better reflect the over-all point - that's the intention.

 

Please use the gDrive's comment feature - it's great! You can highlight a line or right click on a para and add a relevant comment.

Edited March 17, 2013 by Lithium Flower

[kradus]

The Empire however had a large number of Nords and the remaining Imperial troops. They could have marched on Alinor, but the Emperor took the cowardly way out and surrendered. The AD's army was annihilated and almost completely gone. The Empire had 1 maybe 2 Nord legions and another consisting of Imperials. The AD had one army left, which was not at full strength.

 

The empire was actually broke after red ring, not able to even carry on minor campaigns like retaking Markarth, let alone relieving hammerfell, or invading. So the Dominion had it better for sure. The situation had obviously improved by the time of the Stormcloak rebelion, considering that the empire can field its own armies now. So the rebuilding part of the deal had worked so far.

 

 

 

Whiterun is the fault line of the war, its 50 50 not one or the other. Half the city wants Stormcloak rulers and the other Imperial, obviously bethesda isnt going to have every single NPC have dialogue for the war. And also saying that very few NPC's claim to be pro Stormcloak, the same can be said for Imperials.

 

Balgruuf decided to side with the Empire because he has a grudge against Ulfric, not for the good of his people. Ulfric was chosen by the Greybeards rather than Balgruuf, thats why he dislikes Ulfric. He made a poor choice for a poor reason.

 

This isnt relevant but it made me laugh. One of the other privates in my company said "Everyone who's not dead is alive."

 

I laughed so hard I cried when he said that.

Bam, right there.

 

No, it's just more conjecture.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Not really, Balgruuf himself tells you that he made the trip, Ulfric did the same. Ulfric was chosen and Balgruuf has had a dislike for Ulfric ever since. Gerdur even says they've been at odds for years. Ulfric sends his axe and Balgruuf declines it. He knows that Ulfric will now send the Stormcloaks, and Preventus talks him into asking Tullius for help. Balgruuf is aware of what the Empires doing and isnt for the Empire but he doesnt like Ulfric either. It may still technically be conjecture but it has a great support base.

[kradus]

Wrong, he made the pilgrimage, like many people do. But there's no info whatsoever of him requesting to be a greybeard, you're just making that up from a lack of arguments. Balgruuf simply doesn't want troops in his city. As a stormcloak you should be very aware of his political inclinations, consideing what he says when you beat him in the throne room, despite his life being on the line. He IS an imperial, quit trying to deny lore. Edited March 17, 2013 by kradus

[Anska]

Hi, I silently followed your discussion for a while now and find it interesting to read, despite not really supporting either side myself - they both have their pros and cons.

 

But the bit about Balgruuf wanting to become a Greybeard puzzled me - especially since his article in the Unofficial Elderscrolls Pages also says that he attempted learn the thu'um but failed to do so. Does he or someone actually say this somewhere? Like Kradus I can only remember Balgruuf saying that he once made the pilgrimage and would like to make it again some day. That doesn't really sound like he ever desired to learn a shout or to even become a Greybeard.

 

Edit: And on a second thought, the idea of Jarl Balgruuf making such an important decision out of personal dislike and petty jealousy seems to be a bit out of character for a man who seems to be one of the more respected Jarls out there.

Edited March 17, 2013 by Anska

[LithiumPower]

Wrong, he made the pilgrimage, like many people do. But there's no info whatsoever of him requesting to be a greybeard, you're just making that up from a lack of arguments. Balgruuf simply doesn't want troops in his city. As a stormcloak you should be very aware of his political inclinations, consideing what he says when you beat him in the throne room, despite his life being on the line. He IS an imperial, quit trying to deny lore.

 

Balgruuf himself admits that maybe the stormcloaks are right, we Jarls were never consulted before the Empire signed that damn Concordat and Proventus his own steward points out that he accepted Imperial coin to refuse to join the rebellion.

I seem to recall that it's Arngeir who mentions that Ulfric and Balgruuf had a childhood rivalry over who would be accepted by the greybeards.

[RighthandofSithis]

I'd request everyone, especially our pro-imperial friends - Kayyleb, Kradus (I'm sorry I'm forgetting someone I know) please take a look at the document linked in my signature and use the google comment feature to give me some feed back on any points I may have missed in summarising the Imperial arguments. The more feedback I get, the better the final document will reflect the Imperial arguments.

 

There's no point giving me feedback here, because I might miss it but just right click and add a comment on the document itself - you don't have to sign into google, you can comment anonymously. I'd especially appreciate links to corroborating dialogue or in-game texts. UESP.net or The Imperial Library is preferred to elderscroll wiki.

 

And not just imperials, stormcloaks too. Everyone!

 

Stormcloak arguments to follow soon.

 

Well, its a Monday. Perfect time to ask me to do anything.

 

I'd happily write a synthesis of my arguements, but don't expect them soon. I may not be able to for a few days.

[LithiumPower]

Excellent! I've knocked together a basic outline of the stormcloak argument as well and I'll put it up sometime tomorrow when I wake up. When RHoS has readied his arguments, I'll incorporate those as well.

 

sisterof, I had covered some of the points you raised under various headings earlier but I've tried to reword them to give it some more clarity.

 

 

Everyone else! Please comment! Your feedback is invaluable seriously. Anything you have to add, any suggestions at all will help make this document better.

[RighthandofSithis]

Excellent! I've knocked together a basic outline of the stormcloak argument as well and I'll put it up sometime tomorrow when I wake up. When RHoS has readied his arguments, I'll incorporate those as well.

 

I'm finally free, so here are my points:

 

The Empire is collapsing: Following the Oblvivion Crisis, many NPCs suggested that the Empire may have been beginning to wane. They were right. Within the year, Black Marsh Succeeded, along with Elsweyr. by the 5th year, Morrowind was destroyed, and within the 30th year, the Thalmor took advantage of the turmoil facing the Empire, and formed the Aldmeri Dominion. So even entering the 4th Era, the Empire was stunted.

 

In the 2nd century, the cities of Winterhold and Riften were devastated, further crippling the Empire. However the Great War was undoubtedly the largest blow to the Empire in recent history. By the end of it, the Imperial treasury and legions were spent, and the Cyrodiilic infrastructure ruined. To make things worse, Hammerfell left, serious drug wars began in Cyrodiil and Skyrim slowly became gripped in Civil War, making rebuilding near impossible.

 

Thus, over a period of 200 years, the Empire has entered a never-ending spiral of collapse, signalling it is heading the way of Rome, Byzantium, Russia, China and the Ottomans (etc).

 

Irreversibility of the 'spiral of collapse': While it is commonly said that the problems outlined above can be solved rather easily, this approach undermines the dynamics of how Empires fall. With every lost province, the Empire loses income, meaning it cannot pay troops or fund projects, which leads to other provinces declaring Independence, meaning the Empire loses yet more income (etc etc). Obviously, when you run out of money, your troops rebel (or disband), and you have no ability to reverse the situation, without creating a 'revolutionary situation', which has the potential to end the Empire in an instant.

 

Food: While Sybille Stentor states that Skyrim relies entirely upon food imports from Cyrodiil, further investigation suggests that this is not necessarily the case. Several NPCs comment on how Skyrim has been utilised for agriculture. Nazeem, the Battle-Borns, Snow-Shods and Rorik all suggest that Skyrim can be, and already has been, used for agricultural activity. This is supported by The Songs of the Return (Volume 7), and some comments in the PGE 3rd Edition, which suggest that Skyrim has always been a powerful nations, and has a high population. Naturally, during the Interregnum, for Skyrim to remain as such, it would require a source of food.

 

With this in mind, it becomes more feasible that Sybille's coments may not have been reffering to Skyrim as a whole, but The Imperial Holds of Skyrim (which, according to game representation, and comments from Solitude citizens, do not provide significant amounts of food), and that she had worded her comments in such a manner as to put forward her own political agenda.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Anska]

I thought about the point concerning food and resources too. I don't think Sybille is completely making it up or trying to cloud the facts, because one of Ulfric's main concerns after winning the war is, to make Skyrim "strong and self-reliant" again, implying that Skyrim is not so very self reliant at the moment. But I still don't think it is as big a problem as she makes it sound in her argument.

 

If you take a look at Skyrim's farms they grow wheat, potatoes, leeks ... they have cows, chickens and plenty of wildlife to hunt. In short: basic food supplies and for most people this seems to be enough. If you turn your gaze to Solitude, two of the quests you get soon after entering the city are to bring some imported rum to the steward and to get imported spices from the harbor. This implies that for a cosmopolitan capital city like Solitude, the basic foods grown in Skyrim itself aren't sufficient to fulfill the wishes of the townsfolk. They might not need imported food and resources to survive, but they certainly need them to uphold the living standard they are used to.

 

The other "problem" of Skyrim's economy might be, that it has been part of a large Empire with stable trading connections for ages. There was no need for Skyrim to be self-reliant, because it could simply import things it had trouble producing itself and concentrate on producing things which Skyrim was better suited for producing. That does not mean it is impossible for Skyrim to get along on its own, it just means that some things might have to be restructured.

 

Both points can easily support the theory that Skyrim might not really be so very dependent on the Empire to manage daily life. What is more, they also support one of Ulfric's main accusations against the Empire-friendly Jarls by suggesting, that they are indeed not loyal to the Empire, but rather to the Empire's money and luxuries. - In other words: that they have sold their honor.

 

Edited for typos

Edited March 19, 2013 by Anska