Imperial VS Stormcloak

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

If I am understanding you right then, -

 

No, I have a major dislike for the Aldmeri Dominion and feel it needs to be destroyed. I realized after siding with the Empire in my first play through that they made little mention of fighting the AD, whereas Galmar and Ulfric mention it loudly and proudly that they will fight the AD. I also see that alone, Skyrim fighting the AD would be difficult and far from easy in a real perspective. but possible. I, yes, love Skyrim but I also love Morrowind and parts of Cyrodiil, the land particularly not all the people. But NPC's make mention of a possible alliance between Hammerfell and Skyrim. I also feel that a Stormcloak Victory would catch the attention of both High Rock and Morrowind, no doubt the AD as well. And house Redoran is fond of Skyrim and hates the Empire and the AD. So alliances can and will be made. Like I mentioned earlier the Nords arent overly proud to ask for help. With a Tamriel controlled by the Dominion? Well that would mean they would have forces stretched very thinly and would either collapse under its own weight or be over thrown. I say this because every province has a mistrust or deep seeded hatred of the Dominion. So I do believe at that point that it wouldnt be hard to fight them off.

 

 

When it comes to an invasion of Skyrim the problem is the terrain. A pass is a choke point in which the invading army would have to move through the pass and force your troops to move into a column. In which case the Stormcloaks have shown they know how to use guerrilla tactics, by using these tactics if the AD's army is moving in a column through the narrow pass it makes it easier for the Stormcloaks to attack the column using hit and run tactics. Which would dwindle the resources of the AD's army down to almost nothing. The fact that its nearly always snowing in the passes proves that it makes it harder to move a large force through the pass. There’s no way for the AD to take the high ground because of the jagged, rocky mountains. The Nords know the mountains and the land better than the AD, they have been living there for generations. Moral of the AD would decrease and the soldiers wouldn’t be as hard pressed to continue moving. They would also be tired. They would be constantly chasing the Nords through the mountains and not be as focused on gaining a foothold in the pass. The Nords could take the time and sit by and let the army starve. If the AD made it through the pass (Which as I have explained would be very difficult, not impossible but hard) they would maybe take a fort, like fort Neugrad. Then they would need to gain the resources lost back and have to rebuild and possibly need reinforcements. Which would also give the Nords time to pick at the remaining soldiers and dwindle them down even further in number. This wouldn’t take that many Nords. Maybe a few hundred. I’m going to assume that the AD has several thousands of soldiers. The Nords I’m assuming (Game logistics aside) have a few thousand soldiers. Using part of their force would be enough to deplete the moral of the advancing army. Attacking via the hills, hit and run tactics would be the best choice. Hit the AD's army and making them chase the Nords into the hills where they can be ambushed by more forces. The Nords could also use the land itself against them. They could block off the pass and force the army to halt and clear the pass then ambush them. These are examples of things the Nords could do. The Celts did this to the Romans. Or the Nords could form a phalanx in the pass like RHoS pushes for.

 

Now, for a sea invasion. If the AD's army were to attack via the sea of ghosts, they have to travel through arctic waters which is no picnic. Then they must gain a beachhead. Which there are several places they can do this but not for a large force. They would need to spread the forces out for several landings that would need to occur simultaneously. Then they could rendezvous at any given location large enough to support the numbers. Then during this time the Nords can, once again, use guerrilla tactics to halt the AD forces. If the AD successfully gains a beachhead the Nords could just barrage them with a large force. Initially, they could just attack supply lines and starve the AD's army but let’s pretend for a moment that the Nords do not do this. The AD has an established beachhead and a steady supply line. They could funnel reinforcements and establish a strong presence in Skyrim. The Nords have shown in the past that they can destroy large forces due to military prowess. The Nords know their land and aren’t so willing to allow someone else to invade it. Also the Nords are capable seamen which would allow them to harass the AD’s navy, not necessarily full on attacks but at least harass the supply ships making the moral of the AD’s army decrease. Much like the winter offensive the soviets put up against Germany during WW II.

Edited March 21, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[TheLoreSeeker]

So it is your opinion that Nord culture will be capable of overcoming its basic mistrust of other races in order to ally against the Dominion? Especially in the case of an alliance with the Dunmer, a race with whom the Nords have sufficient bad relations. If this kind of an alliance can be formed and the Nords can overcome their "issues" with foreigners then they would have 3 nations backing them.

 

But if it can't you'd be forced to bide time and build your own strength...what if the Altmer just out wait you? The elves can outlive any human so unless a strike against the Dominion comes soon then the Nord leaders could potentially weaken again after Ulfric passes.

 

And would you be OK with just leaving the Imperial province to fall at the hands of the Dominion...losing Bruma for instance, who's population is Nord in majority?

Edited March 21, 2013 by TheLoreSeeker

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

You make some good points, but in the past the Nords have gotten past their mistrust and dislike for other races. The Ebonheart Pact, The Septim Empire, those are the best two examples. The Nords do, as much as people like to think otherwise, put the good of people in mind. Currently the only example of bad relations with the Dunmer and the Nords is seen in Windhelm, read "The Scourge of the Grey Quarter" and you'll understand. Windhelm was a city where no mer could live, up until Ulfric and his father were in power, so Ulfric tolerates them, but does not love them. Do not mistake his cold disdain for hatred.

 

But the thing about just out waiting Ulfric. Well that point I dont think I can address well enough to defend myself, honestly Ulfric is very charismatic and good at what he does. So if the elves just wait and bide their time, then I couldnt say, I would hope Ulfric has heirs or is a Werewolf. But not likely. I still dont think the Nords will just let the AD walk into Skyrim but maybe not take the fight to them, depending on who becomes the next High King after Ulfric passes. But like I said, Ulfric plans on invading Alinor so . . . potentially they wont be able to out wait them.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Oh you got me on Bruma, I love Bruma, well Im not sure where the Nords stand on Cyrodiil. Currently Bruma is one of the very few Imperial cities that are semi peaceful and the rest of Cyrodiil is currently stricken with poverty, famine, strife and crime. So it has already fallen, in a sense.

[TheLoreSeeker]

Its true that the only "current" instance of bad blood between the Nords and the Dunmer is the unfortunate circumstances of the Grey Quarter. But the bad blood I was referring to was of an older sort. The Nord invasion of Morrowind and the people's distaste for anything "elf".

 

And although it is true that House Redoran isn't always pro-Imperial culture, they have a history of mutual respect for the Legion.

 

So there are some lasting issues between the two cultures...and the Dunmer live just as long as the Altmer....so yeah...long memories. If they can overcome their differences then yeah sure they'd have a chance at forming up against the Dominion.

 

As for the Redguards, an alliance is possible if the Redguard can settle their own issues. As for Highrock or Orsinium, I suppose it depends on how they feel about Skyrim after the dissolving of the Empire which they still support.

Edited March 21, 2013 by TheLoreSeeker

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

All true. I still feel that with the situation, a temporary alliance between Skyrim - Morrowind - and Hammerfell would be enough to fight the AD. A large percent of Bosmer have a dislike of the AD, same with the Khajiit and some Altmer. The Summerset Resistance is a good example. So all in all I believe that the Thalmor are way in over their heads and are to inept or overly proud to realize that their plan will fail, one way or another. Even with Skyrim being independent, The Kingdom of Cyrodiil could muster all its forces to face the Dominion, Skyrim's Nordic Army, Morrowind's Army, Hammerfell's Army, High Rock, Orsinium, Black Marsh, a percentage of Bosmer, Khajiit, and Altmer. The Dominion is screwed, even if they defeat one or more of these forces they cant beat them all. My only argument is that Skyrim needs to independent. Its stronger that way. I have a hatred for what the Empire has done to its people and the Nord people but I wouldnt pry Cyrodiil from them, not unless it was a must.

 

The alliances I feel wouldnt last long after the next war, everyone would go back home and be at peace, for a time. Peace never really lasts.

 

House Redoran also has much respect for the Nords. After all, it was the Nord High King who gave them Solstheim after the Red Year. And Skyrim has always been a safe haven for the Dunmer, although the Nords may not take that as the best news, buts its been true for years.

 

I personally love the Dunmer, if my character isnt a Nord or Orc Im a Dark Elf.

 

Edited for grammatical errors.

Edited March 21, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[RighthandofSithis]

HighkingUlfricStormcloak, on 21 Mar 2013 - 13:01, said:

Oh you got me on Bruma, I love Bruma, well Im not sure where the Nords stand on Cyrodiil. Currently Bruma is one of the very few Imperial cities that are semi peaceful and the rest of Cyrodiil is currently stricken with poverty, famine, strife and crime. So it has already fallen, in a sense.

No, Cicero says the ENTIRE imperial province is ravaged by strife, thus including Bruma. With this in mind, and apply actual revolutionary theory to the topic (Permanant Revolution), then we can see that Bruma's Nords have probably begun some sort of conflict with the Imperials. A Stormcloak Victory would cause an upsurge of revolutionary activity in Bruma, hell, I would expect Skyrim to intervene on the Nords behalf (and I'd hope they do, knowing the defensive capabilities of bruma).

 

 

I have explained before why Skyrim could stand on its own, easily.

And I have explained why the Empire is unable to combat the Dominion. Its only 2 pages back. At worst, some resistance is better than no resistance, at best the dominions plans have been completely f***ed, and they now face another war in an unfavorible position (I can elaborate if you want em to, but it is a long post).

 

TheLoreSeeker, on 21 Mar 2013 - 13:18, said:

 

So there are some lasting issues between the two cultures...and the Dunmer live just as long as the Altmer....so yeah...long memories. If they can overcome their differences then yeah sure they'd have a chance at forming up against the Dominion.

 

As for the Redguards, an alliance is possible if the Redguard can settle their own issues. As for Highrock or Orsinium, I suppose it depends on how they feel about Skyrim after the dissolving of the Empire which they still support.

Morrowind is in Ruins, I can't see the Dunmer providing much support.

 

The Redguards have settled their issues, both with the thalmor, and thus (implicitly) internally. When the Redguards ousted the Dominions forces from hammerfell (Evident in 'The Great War'), the Crowns in the North were in the prime position to subjugate the Forbears (as they usually do when the Empire isn't around).

 

At the same time, if the concept of 'my enemies enemy is my friend' can work for the most hated of enemies (The Ebonheart Pact in TES, or the Allies of WW2 in RL), then why can cultures that share warrior cultures and a hatred of the Dominion (and have no real reason to hate each other) not come together? Hell, its even suggested in game that such an alliance has been proposed before, with a Stormcloak Victory in Skyrim, the same alliance would probably be proposed again.

 

High Rock is to divided. For all we know, it could include 5000 kingdoms, dutchies and baronies all independent and vying for power. A Few Kingdoms could be useful trading partners, and could even provide some support, but in general, they shouldn't be relied upon.

 

The Orcs, historically, have only wanted a home. Wether it be the orc strongholds in Skyrim, or the city of Orsinium (situated between Hammerfell and Skyrim, at current), they probably wouldn;t be interested in fighting the Dominion, unless the Thalmor start meddling in orcish affairs.

Edited March 21, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[TheLoreSeeker]

I can't see much help coming out of Blackmarsh either. Argonia was only really the Imperial frontier, still untamed and brutal....and they are on rather bad terms with the Houses of Morrowind....what with all the slavery and all.

 

I would assume that an alliance with the Dunmer would mean the Argonians wouldn't help.

 

 

 

As for Highrock....I was under the impression that there were only 4 kingdoms since the warp in the west occurred; Sentinel, Daggerfall, Wayrest , and Orsinium.

 

And...Sentinel is in Hammerfell...

Edited March 21, 2013 by TheLoreSeeker

[sisterof]

I think the threat of a huge common enemy does wonders for diplomacy. And I point yet again that Hammerfell has succeeded all by itself. If the provinces won't ally to attack the Aldmeri Dominion, Skyrim can at least withstand it.

@TheLoreSeeker: I've stated this a thousand times before, so forgive the redundancy in case you had already seen this argument - it makes no sense arguing what the right side is, because there is none. There's two different approaches to a problem, with two different outcomes in case of victory against the Dominion (unified Empire or independent Skyrim). Each path has it's own downsides. It's all a matter of what you are willing to give up, and for what, and what to you expect to see once the major war is done and the dust settled.
Even more than that - it's not just about convincing me or you or any player - it's about making a choice for a character (or several, if you like to roleplay different ones). You can gather all arguments that will make your Stormcloak character a totally loyal Stormcloak, and also arguments for your Imperial character a total Imperial. Because both sides have them with the same significance. And arguing our own standing, in our own view (not our characters') is as useless as arguing capitalism, communism and so on.

I'm all for a discussion like this to go on and on, in depth and civilized. But in the end, at least to me, it's a way of firming my (multiple) characters' beliefs and better building their personalities. Not so much convincing myself or any player. There's intelligent people on both sides (and less bright ones too...), it would be sheer arrogance to assume that a whole percentage of the players is simply stupid and cannot see the good guy from the bad guy. Just as I find it naivety to assume there is a bad guy and a good guy to start with.

[LithiumPower]

I'm back with a happy announcement! No, I'm not pregnant but I have delivered the Argument for the Stormcloaks (it was just as laborious an exercise I assure you). I think I've included everything and it's rather large and perhaps a bit unwieldy, might even be prone to waking me up by crapping in the middle of the night...

 

In any case - read and review please! Let me know what needs changing! (not diapers!) Please use the comment feature on the document itself, that's such a help, you can highlight any word/phrase/paragraph/whole bloody document - right click and leave a scathing remark that shall keep me up all night.

 

Links in my signature!

 

P.S. Thank you RhoS, I also snagged your list of stormcloak supporters in addition to your write up some pages back.