InAComaDial999 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 He's getting peace and a chance to rebuild. Though, there's little chance of either working what with the various rebellions. What peace? He's busy fighting a war in Skyrim. He's not rebuilding, he's throwing money and lives away. And with each Nord that is killed in battle or publicly executed he drives the wedge deeper between Cyrodiil and Skyrim. The best thing that can happen is for the Empire to leave Skyrim, and let both truly have peace and truly rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xaliqen Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 (edited) He's getting peace and a chance to rebuild. Though, there's little chance of either working what with the various rebellions. What peace? He's busy fighting a war in Skyrim. He's not rebuilding, he's throwing money and lives away. And with each Nord that is killed in battle or publicly executed he drives the wedge deeper between Cyrodiil and Skyrim. The best thing that can happen is for the Empire to leave Skyrim, and let both truly have peace and truly rebuild. If the empire breaks apart, peace won't last long. The Thalmor are merely waiting for an opportune moment to strike. And will Ulfric really be able to keep the jarls from splitting off into smaller kingdoms? Edited December 10, 2011 by xaliqen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) Considering the era comparisons between our world and TES, those frost bear a striking resemblance to rennisance Embasies. As such, using them as a basis for argueing the Empire is just a Thalmor puppet is absurd, because countries have maintained Embasies in hostile and lukewarm nations for centuries. Japan maintained its Washington embasy until ony days before the Pearl Harbour attack*. As for allowing the Thalmor to arrest violators of the Talos clause of the Concordant, this also has a historic precidence. Dozens of Arab communities did the same regarding the Templar during the Christian occupation of what is modern day Israel in order to delay another war. it did nothing to weaken their possition, and in fact drove the Crusaders into a false sense that the Arab world had capitulated to Christianity, a feeling which was quickly upended when Saladin led a quarter of a million Arabs in the retaking of 'the Holy Land'. Trying to maintain even a tenious peace is hardly a crime, even when some have to be sacrificed to save the lives of many more. As for the legitimacy of the Mede dynasty, based on the information in The Infernal City, Slyrim was more accepting of the Mede's than even some of the cities of Cyrodiil. I'm sure most of Tamriel didn't approve of Pelagiad and his bat-S*** crazy antics, but the loss of faith in the bloodline didn't spark any real wars of sucession back then. As such, and based on the fact that Skyrim accepted the Mede's, you can't use the arguement that they've lost faith in them as justification. As Alvar says, the Nords are not fair-weather friends. None of this, however, deals with what i view as the core issue of the Rebelion. That being why the Thalmor are there in the first place. It's stated in several places, by several people that the Empire did not enforce the Talos ban. Not until Ulfric got on his soap-box and started shouting about how if they can worship Talos in their homes they should be able to worship him in the streets. This caused the Thalmor to take notice, which caused the Empire to crack down or violate the Concordant. Ulfric is directly responsible for the very circumstances he becries to rally others to his side. He litterally made a problem out of nothing, and in creating that problem gave himself a rallying call to draw simple minded people to his side. In that way he reminds me of a certian political figures in our own somewhat recent history... None of them particularly good. * I feel i should point out that Pearl Harbour was only a surprise because of the ineptitude of the American Armed Forces at the time, and the ever present american culture of trafic jams. The formal declaration from the Japaneese was supposed to arrive at the White House 4 hours before the attack on Pearl Harbour was supposed to start, but the ambassidor got caught in traffic and missed the deadline. As for the ineptitude of the military, the Airforce, Navy and Army refused to share intelegence reports amongst themselves, and despite the glowing reports of the use of Radar comming out of the European war, the Americans viewed Radar as 'cheating' and 'unreliable' A single radar instilation would have given the American forces ample time to scrample fighters before the arrival of the Japaneese. But all of that is very off topic. Edited December 11, 2011 by Lachdonin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NephilimNexus Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) Simply put, I didn't spent all those hours playing Oblivion trying to save the Empire just to turn around and betray them in Skyrim. Besides, the Empire revolves around an ideal - the ideal of the Empire. Emperors come and go, wars are won and lost, but the Empire always remains. The Empire has stood for centuries. It has withstood the Akaviri, it has withstood innumerable plots, it has even withstood Dagoth Ur and Molag Baal. The Stormcloaks all revolve around a man - heck, they even name themselves after this man. But at the end of the day, Ulfric is still just a man, and nothing he builds will outlast him. (Assuming he actually can build and not just destroy) Edited December 11, 2011 by NephilimNexus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InAComaDial999 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Considering the era comparisons between our world and TES, those frost bear a striking resemblance to rennisance Embasies. As such, using them as a basis for argueing the Empire is just a Thalmor puppet is absurd, because countries have maintained Embasies in hostile and lukewarm nations for centuries. Japan maintained its Washington embasy until ony days before the Pearl Harbour attack*. I am not talking about the Thalmor Embassy. I am talking about Northwatch Keep, an actual fort garrisoned by the Thalmor military where they keep Nord prisoners. Not until Ulfric got on his soap-box and started shouting about how if they can worship Talos in their homes they should be able to worship him in the streets. This caused the Thalmor to take notice, which caused the Empire to crack down or violate the Concordant. Right, because the Empire is a Thalmor puppet state. You can tart it up by saying it's treaty stipulations, but what it comes down to is the Thalmor have control over internal affairs in the Empire. Ulfric is directly responsible for the very circumstances he becries to rally others to his side. Being "allowed" to worship in secret is not something any self-respecting Nord would stand. There's a reason so many Nords are willing to die for this cause, and it isn't simply because Ulfric is a good orator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenu Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Right, because the Empire is a Thalmor puppet state. You can tart it up by saying it's treaty stipulations, but what it comes down to is the Thalmor have control over internal affairs in the Empire. You act like they have a choice in the matter. The Empire is operating under a "live to fight another day" idea. It's already torn apart as is, and striking back at the Thalmor now would result in complete annihilation. As long as they remain allies, they can keep the Thalmor in check at least on some level. The Empire needs to regain itself before taking on the Thalmor again, and Skyrim would be a helpful place to have on their side when that time comes. And if you listen to dialogue and probably some documents in the game, just about everyone realizes that the conflict will start up again, and the relationship between the Empire and the Thalmor is strained at the best of times. No one, not Imperials, not Stormcloaks, not Thalmor, not random citizens, denies that sooner or later all hell is going to break loose in another Great War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BallsOFyre Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 In my opinion, the game designers opted for a "No one is right" scenerio here to plop the player into....which, is rather refreshing, and more like the real world operates. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely, and t doesn't matter who it is that conquers, in the end, they are out for themselves...amassing power and wealth. So, ones choices are more about being a "part" of this epic sequence of events. Joining one side or the other, or staying neutral makes you think about what is happening. The more you ponder whom is right the more you realize that it's war and destruction that is bad, and that no matter whom wins, all of civilization is worse for the death and destruction. I went Stormcloak, by the way, just because I prefer the Nord's look, their more underdog station, and that great, tough, Nord General with his muscles and tree like build. He is hilarious and my little dark elf spy is so amused by his nicknames for her and how opposite they look physically that I'm glad I chose this side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xaliqen Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) So, ones choices are more about being a "part" of this epic sequence of events. Joining one side or the other, or staying neutral makes you think about what is happening. The more you ponder whom is right the more you realize that it's war and destruction that is bad, and that no matter whom wins, all of civilization is worse for the death and destruction. It certainly raises interesting questions, such as whether it's better to live with oppression or fight for some kind of freedom. Of course, what kind of freedom and what kind of oppression you're talking about depends on who you ask, which is also an interesting twist in the story. For the dark elves living in the ghetto of Windhelm, it would be freedom from racist Stormcloak policies they'd be fighting for. For the Grey-Manes in Whiterun, they'd fight for greater respect of the poor and freedom to worship Talos. If neither of these two sides is wrong, then it's a more complex question of whether the potential benefit of freedom outweighs the tragedy of war. Of course, there's no easy answer to this no matter which world you're looking at. Edited December 11, 2011 by xaliqen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korodic Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Wasn't a hard decision for me to make. While I dislike the thalmore, I know the empire has more of a chance on maintaining stability. There is ALWAYS work to be done in Skyrim, so if the Empire discriminates against the poor so be it, but when you discriminate race like the Stormcloaks do, then I don't want to see them in power. The guards were said to IGNORE the other races when they needed help in windhelm. I have a problem with that, and the fact that Ulfric killed the high king. Which again I will say it is MURDER for using the voice. Had Ulfric not used his voice maybe the high king would have killed Ulfric then, therefore I consider it not to be a fair fight. Windhelm is also a joke, the place is so run down looking how does the jarl expect to run the empire? Look at solitude, that is a well kept and wealthy town. I really spent time thinking before I chose a side. While I didn't like General Tullius talking me down, I certainly didn't appreciate Ulfric and his disrespectful attitude towards me. You better believe I didn't give him the satisfaction he wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ericcartmans Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 storm cloaks all the way screw the empire skyrim was built upon worship on talos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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