Imperial VS Stormcloak

[SunKiller]

@Amoryenar

 

Stormcloaks = Protect Nord Culture and Freedom, Liberation of Skyrim from the Imperial system / influence, Abolish the WGC in Skyrim, Re-organize and Rehab Nord authority / control over the province.

Imperials = Maintain unification of Skyrim to try and save Imperial system from imminent collapse, Enforce Imperial Law, Comply with WGC to whatever extent, Restore and Re-Centralize Imperial authority / control over the province.

 

Stormcloaks want to undo injustices done against Skyrim by the Empire, Imperials are bidding on saving the Empire by restoring order in Skyrim.

 

Between these two factions, there is both good and evil, as these are true factions, not just characters who reflect morality, where each faction represents an idea but is made up of real-world types of people.

 

Hope that helps.

Edited March 30, 2013 by SunKiller

[Kayyyleb]

I will never give up freedom for a chance at life. That's what siding with the Empire is doing. Life is being put as the top priority rather than freedom.

Freedom is worthless to dead people.

[SpockST]

When I did the quest where I went into the Thalmar(sp?) embassy to find some information, I found some documents that seemed to implicate that Jarl Ulfric was helping the Thalmar by doing what he was doing. Because of that, I played through the Stormcloak quest line once but have played the Imperial side all other times.

 

I don't like the Thalmar.

[TheLoreSeeker]

 

I will never give up freedom for a chance at life. That's what siding with the Empire is doing. Life is being put as the top priority rather than freedom.

Freedom is worthless to dead people.

 

I want to quote you on that. I think that EVERY time someone throws up the "I'd rather fight to be free than put up with tyranny" argument.

[MightyZ0G]

 

I will never give up freedom for a chance at life. That's what siding with the Empire is doing. Life is being put as the top priority rather than freedom.

Freedom is worthless to dead people.

that is a great quote.

how many Nords would be left to fight for freedom if the Empire hadn't accepted the conditions of the WGC and the war had continued?

Skyrim would probably be lost to the Forsworn while the Empire fought to the last man and then the Thalmor would just walk into High Rock and Skyrim with no resistance at all and Talos worship wouldn't need to be outlawed as there would be no one left to worship him

[LithiumPower]

I laugh every time I see the phrase "the Empire is spread thin having to be in Skyrim"

look at the Imperial soldiers, the majority are Nords. they aren't from Cyrodiil or High Rock, they are locals who support the Empire.

the difference in how thin they are spread is whether they have to defend the borders with Skyrim as well as the Borders with the Dominion or just those latter external borders.

if the Empire stays together then High Rock and Cyrodiil don't have to have a massive presence in Skyrim.

the Thalmor's puppet has been dealt with and the rebellion quelled and Nords will defend Skyrim, Bretons and Orsimer will defend High Rock and Imperials will defend Cyrodiil. this seems to be equal to the outcome if the Stormcloaks win but the difference is that if it is all part of the Empire, the possible battle front is around the coast and more men can be spared to defend it rather than around the entire province.

 

The Dominion would probably leave Cyrodiil and High Rock alone, assassinate Ulfric and take Skyrim with a coastal invasion while it is still reeling after the civil war (and don't forget that only a percentage of the population actually support Ulfric and up to 50% could actually seek refuge in High Rock or Cyrodiil if the Thalmor do invade rather than remain in Skyrim so that would help the remains of the Empire but make defending Skyrim harder)

 

@Lithium Flower. the discussion falls into 2 categories.

within the game and outside the game.

outside the game we can see the inevitable collapse of the Empire but from the inside, which is what we make our role playing choices on, the Empire is not dead and really does have a better chance against the Dominion than the Provinces do if they stand against them individually without mutual support. we don't know that the future has already been written and have no idea about how the game's designers intend the story to pan out.

outside the game it is a pretty safe bet that between the last of the TESV DLC and the beginning of TESVI, the Dominion will conquer all of Tamriel with, probably, Hammerfell as the only Province of Man not under Thalmor rule. we can make that prediction because we are aware that this is a fiction that follows a narrative imperative and certain things have to happen for the different possible choices within each game to come together so that the history is the same for everyone starting the next game. we can make pretty informed guesses about what those conditions will be at the start of TESVI as we can look at how Beth have handled it in the past.

 

The argument is not that the legion is spread thin having to be in Skyrim - the argument is simply that the region is spread thin trying to hold on to imperial territories - not just Skyrim, but also Bravil, Cheydinhal and all the 'fighting in cyrodiil' that various NPC immigrants complain about. That the 'legion is spread thin' is not a conclusion that we stormcloak advocates in this thread have arrived at independently, our argument is drawn directly from the analysis of the legion's situation by a former legion commander - Brina Merelis. What is she talking about in your opinion when she states that? What does the situation in Cyrodiil as pieced together from reports received from NPCs and gleaned from Cicero's journal suggest to you? Do you really think that Skyrim's rebellion is the sole issue threatening the continuance of the Empire? In your opinion, is it a symptom of weakness or the cause of it? Why?

 

Are you really suggesting that 50% of the population of Skyrim ( one of the biggest and most populated provinces) are going to flee to High Rock? We have already given you the numbers of Stormcloak supporters from the game. Most of the prominent clans/families land owners and by extension their unseen vassals support Ulfric. Most nords encountered in the game which are representative of the vast unencountered population of Skyrim support the rebellion. The rest are weary of war and fighting and care nothing for either party - that doesn't mean they automatically support the Empire.

 

How do you suppose the Dominion will invade by sea? Do you have a logical explanation of how they'll manage to support this invasion? I urge you to read Disaster at Ionith. We argue that an invasion of Skyrim will be too difficult for the Dominion, if you're going to refute that argument I'd like to read how altmer can succeed where Uriel V failed.

 

Secondly, none of the information upon which I based my previous post is 'meta' except for that one last reference to real world history, remove that and the point still stands. The entire history of the Mede Empire and the end of the Septim Empire is available for a character to read in Skyrim and form an opinion. Anyone in Skyrim is perfectly capable of perceiving the demise of the Empire without needing to have played through the games on their 21st century computer/console. The rest of your speculation about future DLC and where the developers will take the story next has no bearing on the question of the civil war.

 

You claim that a united empire has a better chance against the Thalmor. In light of all the evidence we have piled before you of the empire's spiraling failure, what is your counter argument? Please explain with facts and analysis why the Empire stands a better chance.

[sisterof]

There was no announcement of the next DLC - no name, date or content. as far as I know. There had been (debunked) rumours. I do hope it will be all about the Civil War - though I also hope for a whole game about defeating the Dominion... I guess all I want is more stories coming our way. :biggrin:

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

 

 

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Secondly, none of the information upon which I based my previous post is 'meta' except for that one last reference to real world history, remove that and the point still stands. The entire history of the Mede Empire and the end of the Septim Empire is available for a character to read in Skyrim and form an opinion. Anyone in Skyrim is perfectly capable of perceiving the demise of the Empire without needing to have played through the games on their 21st century computer/console. The rest of your speculation about future DLC and where the developers will take the story next has no bearing on the question of the civil war.

You're right about the amphibious assault being suicide, but I think this is jumping the gun a little bit. Redguard DLC comes out on *June 9th* and based on what I've heard about it, there's going to be tons of new information on The Great War, Civil War and possibly quests involving restoring political unity with the Empire Or an alliance between Hammerfell and Skyrim. I think both possibilities are still on the table at this point. Dragonborn was informative but I think Redguard is really going to put things in a better perspective. It would be nice to get the Redguards feelings on everything. Remember though, if and I'll admit this is a pretty big IF, Hammerfell too should rejoin the Empire, the Empire will survive and can get back on it's feet. I wonder what it would take for the Redguards to come back on board, besides another war with the Dominion of course.

>Quote

 

You claim that a united empire has a better chance against the Thalmor. In light of all the evidence we have piled before you of the empire's spiraling failure, what is your counter argument? Please explain with facts and analysis why the Empire stands a better chance.

Hammerfell rejoining the Empire. That's the only argument we need. :smile: Although, I'm not entirely sure that's what he was specifically referring to it. But that would do it. Because in order for the Redguards to rejoin the Empire, it would take some very positive change which would send a clear indication that the Empire is healing and trying to get back up the ladder. My monies still on the Empire, although how, when and by whom this change will occur is speculation at best.

 

Hammerfell hates the Empire, I mean hates it, not dislike, hates. Read Lu'ah Al - Skaven's journal. Hammerfell hates the Empire, theres no chance for an alliance there.

 

Like Lithium has said before. We have given you unbiased and clear evidence that the empire is collapsing. Yet there's no argument against it, only "maybe the next DLC will make the empire stronger." But yet what we have provided here shows that even with an Imperial victory in Skyrim the Empire will fall. There's evidence to prove it, but none to disprove it. Instead you say "Well Skyrim cant beat the Dominion" but yet even there we have evidence saying thats its more likely a Stormcloak victory against the Dominion than an Imperial one.

 

The empire cannot recover simply by stamping out the rebellion in Skyrim, it doesnt work like that.

 

For Kayyyleb. Many Nords say the phrase "Victory of Sovngarde" which translates to freedom or death. I have a hard time believing you were in the military like you claim you were. We swore to defend freedom at any cost did we not? That cost includes our lives. I would gladly give up mine if it meant others would remain free.

 

The Imperials only say "For the emperor" or "send Ulfric my regards" or "long live the empire" yet when asked why they joined the legion "My father was a legionnaire and his before him, I guess I never though about doing anything else."

 

"So why did you join the Stormcloaks?" - "My cousin disappeared one night. Some say the Thalmor grabbed him. Wasnt long before I found myself under Ulfric's banner." - "Im a true Nord, its as simple as that." - "I dont want some snotty elf telling me what gods I can and cant worship."

 

The Empire is spread thin. Many NPC's suggest such and it makes absolute sense. You're denying the obvious truth if you are denying our claim for that. My question is "Why didnt the Empire let Skyrim secede, and have friendly trade (potentially) and save its resources to war with the dominion?" Well I cant answer that, it would have been a better move and saved many lives and resources. And if it wins in Skyrim it cant divert its legions to go back to Cyrodiil, they still have to deal with the remaining rebels. So now they have to worry about 18 cities. Civil unrest and rebellion in almost all of them.

 

The Empire, even with a new emperor, will not simply revive itself and be created anew. It doesnt work like that. No government has ever recovered from any situation like this. Maybe one of these problems but never all of them at once.

 

I want to see a good argument as to how the Empire will recover from all these problems and become the apex of perfection once again.

 

Im not saying with a Stormcloak victory that they will just roll into Summerset Isles and annihilate the elves, Im saying they have a better chance. The Stormcloaks have made and are making plans for this. Whereas the Empire secretly mentions the possibility.

 

So you guys like to say "The next DLC will answer all these unanswered questions and save the empire." But what if it doesnt. what to do then? Hope that bethesda will keep this crumbling (and yes its crumbling) empire in power only to eventually collapse and buckle under its own weight.

Edited March 30, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[LithiumPower]

I have heard nothing solid about the so called Redguard DLC. I would appreciate links to information.

 

Why would Hammerfell re-join the Empire that first recalled their legion from defence of their homes, then surrendered half their territory to the Thalmor, then renounced them when they protested?

 

When and if a DLC comes out to add further to the civil war we can talk about it - bringing speculation into this discourse does not further either position.

[TheLoreSeeker]

Seriously...you guys gotta chill out.

You ask why no one will add to the support of the Imperials but then you jump down the throats of anyone who says anything even REMOTELY supportive.

Take off the war-paint and just chill.