Imperial VS Stormcloak

[xaliqen]

Wasn't a hard decision for me to make. While I dislike the thalmore, I know the empire has more of a chance on maintaining stability. There is ALWAYS work to be done in Skyrim, so if the Empire discriminates against the poor so be it, but when you discriminate race like the Stormcloaks do, then I don't want to see them in power.

 

I agree with you for the most part, and my personal feeling is that racial inequality is one of the few circumstances where fighting for freedom may be justified (whereas I don't think outlawing one god out of nine provides nearly the same level of justification).

 

At the same time, the people who are going to have the worst of it in any conflict are precisely the poor and the oppressed, and, at least in the real world, there's no guarantee that they'll win. That doesn't mean the cause isn't still worth fighting for, but it's too bad there aren't more in-game options based on finding a solution that doesn't put those populations in the position of suffering even greater losses.

Edited December 11, 2011 by xaliqen

[CemeteryN7]

This was the debate I'm looking for. Thanks guys, I'm enjoying this a lot. I'll still add my two cents here and there. Keep up the good work.

[magnum03]

Wasn't a hard decision for me to make. While I dislike the thalmore, I know the empire has more of a chance on maintaining stability. There is ALWAYS work to be done in Skyrim, so if the Empire discriminates against the poor so be it, but when you discriminate race like the Stormcloaks do, then I don't want to see them in power. The guards were said to IGNORE the other races when they needed help in windhelm. I have a problem with that, and the fact that Ulfric killed the high king. Which again I will say it is MURDER for using the voice. Had Ulfric not used his voice maybe the high king would have killed Ulfric then, therefore I consider it not to be a fair fight.

 

Windhelm is also a joke, the place is so run down looking how does the jarl expect to run the empire? Look at solitude, that is a well kept and wealthy town.

 

I really spent time thinking before I chose a side. While I didn't like General Tullius talking me down, I certainly didn't appreciate Ulfric and his disrespectful attitude towards me.

 

You better believe I didn't give him the satisfaction he wanted.

How is using the voice cheating that's like telling a nation with a huge army invading a smaller nation to only use the same amount of soldiers and the same quality of gear it be stupid to even consider it.

If you 2000 troops fighting 20 why in the hell would you only use 20the when you could save time, money not to mention lives

[Handofbane]

How is using the voice cheating in the duel? Talk to the court wizard at Solitude, and get her description of how the fight went - and why the duel was accepted in the first place. Had Ulfric come up and simply asked Torygg to declare independence from the Empire, Torygg may well have agreed (Elisif says as much when you ask her) - Ulfric came under false pretenses, then issued his challenge on the spot where it could not be refused without Torygg being made to look impotent as the leader of Skyrim, forcing the Moot to assemble and vote on a new High King... gee, I wonder who that would have been. Ulfric had no intention of seeing the boy-king live, as he might have been able to hold onto his position even if such a Moot came about, thus in his grab for power, he made certain the King would die, shouting to utterly cripple him, then stabbing him to death with a dagger (not even a proper Nord sword or axe!).

 

It's one thing to use any advantage you can get during a military campaign - see the Great War for examples - it is another to abuse traditions, spread lies and rumors, and claim to be the One True Nord because you killed a boy nearly half your age without giving him even a chance to raise his blade against you as tradition demanded.

[NephilimNexus]

I also find it silly that although the entire Empire, of which Skyrim is a part of, failed to defeat the Thalmor, yet Ulfric seems to think that Skyrim on it's own will somehow fare better? Because the Thalmor banned Talos worship, and Ulfric wants to bring it back. Even if the Stormcloaks win, then what? Pretty obvious: The Thalmor march in five minutes later and curb stomp the Nords once and for all... which will be even easier without the Empire there to back them up.

 

And a curb stomping it would be, too. Let's see, you have the Thalmor, whom are all High Elves, and thus the one group that have even more magic at their disposal than even the Bretons. Then you have the Nords, who have about as much grasp of magic as they do of quantum mechanics. Not that infantry couldn't hold against mages, but one would have to have superior strategy & tactics to do so - y'know, like the Empire uses? Just drunkenly charging into waves of fireballs would be so pathetic that it would enter the realm of high comedy. And that's pretty much the summary of Nord combat tactics, too.

 

Of course, this is assuming that they're in any shape to fight at all once the Empire stops sending them food. One of many minor details that Ulfric has no plans for remedying. His entire game plan is "I want to be king, dangit, and screw everything else!" Yes, Skyrim would do just so well as a mono-racial, Nords-only kingdom starting a shiny new war with the Thalmor without any Imperial aid or protection.

 

Frankly, I'd be inclined to let him win, just to teach the Nords a lesson they'd (hopefully) not soon forget. A long, long lesson learned while living under the iron boot of total Thalmor domination. But alas, for the good of the Empire, we just made need those drunkards in the front lines when we go for Round Two with the Dominion, and someone has to soak up those fireballs for our Legionaires...

[Lessabos]

I dont think that Thalmor would invade skyrim when Ulfric would won, they will just transfer their spies to another province to start uprising there and after whole empire would be divided they would just conquer them one by one.

[Lachdonin]

The Thalmor also don't have a direct line of travel to Skyrim. Meaning an emediate invasion would be unlikely.

 

However, Jarl Balgruf mentions that the 'traditions' Ulfric argues to uphold date to a time where the Jarls regularly fought amongst eachother, killed eachother, and Skyrim was a place of general warfare and chaos. A wonderful improvement over the law and order of the Empire, don't you think?

[Matth85]

The Thalmor also don't have a direct line of travel to Skyrim. Meaning an emediate invasion would be unlikely.

 

The thing is, they don't need to take Skyrim: They just need Skyrim to stay out of their plan. Ulfric on the throne, and give him an ultimatum: Stand down while they invade Cyrodiil and Hammerfell, or meet a new invasion.

Ulfric know they got no chance as they stand, after a hard civil war.

Suddently the Empire is broken, and the Thalmor can focus on some strategic fighting: Holding off cyrodiil while they take down Hammerfell. Then rest of the frorces return to help their "defensive" line and get cyrodiil once and for all. Now they got the whole of Tamriel exept Skyrim, and with their army -- a total border war. There is nothing anybody could do to stop it.

 

Really, letting the weak Ulfric take over Skyrim would not help. Skyrim would be in chaos for a while, when the chain of command and power would settle. Jarls would fight for more land, cities attack cities. Then they would rebuild. By the time they are ready for a small-scale invasion, they got the Thalmor ready. This would take what, 1 year? And Ulfric woudn't notice.

 

Was loss would the empire give? Unity is stronger than solitude. Hammerfell, Cyrodiil and Skyrim -- together, could repel the Thalmor out of Skyrim and rebuild. Heck, the Empire is the best bet for the dragonborn as well: Ulfric will not give you any power. The Empire could give you a lot of power within Skyrim, meaning you could actually do some strategy.

 

I prefer a good tactic over anything. As of now the Thalmor got the best tactic, followed by the Empire. Both having a long-term strategy, leading to conquering the other part. The Stormcloak, however, ony got a short-term goal. Even though I admire it: Giving back the land to the Nords, it is very shortsighted and racistic. They would have their land for what, a year?

Ulfric is also the least honorable man I've ever read/seen/whateverido! He did the equivalent of bringing a minigun to a sword duel. The same as the Hulk wrestling your eveyday nerd. Would anybody really trust in a leader that would break honor and pride for power? And put short-term goals over tactics and strategy?

 

Cheers,

Matth

[RighthandofSithis]

This is an interesting topic. This is a political struggle between the declining Cyrodillic Empire and the Stormcloak revolutionaries with the Thalmor looking at both sides and seeing that the empire is weakening as a result of the civil war, but do not have total support for either side, rather wishing to have control over both.

 

Before I continue with my evaluation of the situation, I wish to express that in reality, I am an anti-imperialist, and a supporter of egalitarianism (Meaning I don't like Empires or racism etc).

 

The empire is a superpower that has seen it's glory days, but those days seem to be behind them. The Great War with the Thalmor had cost the Empire much of it's prestige, armed forces and, as always with wars of such severity, likely much of the Empire's wealth. Some would say that the Empire is defiantly falling, and that the Thalmor are an indestructable force. However, Both sides had lost much during the Great War. The Thalmor had to accept the peace treaty as well, thus they are not likely in the best position either (If they where, they would have attacked again), albeit the Thalmor don't have to put up with the continuous warring of their own people.

 

Nonetheless, should Skyrim become independent, the empire's fall will be inevitable. The Empire only consists of only three provinces now, Cyrodiil, High Rock and Skyrim. Skyrim is right in the middle of these three places. Thus is Skyrim leaves, the High Rock will have troubled or no communication with Cyrodiil and will be forced to leave (Returning to it's traditional feudalism). However, if the Empire remains united, it would mean that the Thalmor would have to face a unified foe.

 

The Stormcloak revolutionaries on the other hand wish to free themselves from the Empire which they see as being controlled by/allied with the Thalmor. It seems that many Nords are sympathetic to these beliefs. While it is obvious that the Thalmor are not allied with the Empire (They are in fact the greatest of foes), the Nordic people feel shamed that the Thalmor have defeated humanity and to appease them (however temporary) that they must be permitted to deny them their own gods and put up with the elven demands. This is not helped by Nordic xenophobia. Ever since the Slaughter at Saarthal in the First Era, the Nords have always hated any elves, and Elves have always hated the Nords.

 

While the Stormcloaks may be racist, they clearly have the interests of their own people at heart. Skyrim's independence be secured, the Empire will fall. However, this will open opportunities for diplomatic relations with Hammerfell. While Hammerfell is a ruined nation, it is once again reunited and with help from other nations, such as Skyrim, would be able to become a force capable to combating the Thalmor once again. Not only this, but as Skyrim is the northernmost nation in Tamriel, the Thalmor would have to advance through much hostile territory to be able to threaten it. Even then, it would have to advance through the Jerall mountains, an almost impossible barrier between Skyrim and Cyrodiil, and then advance into the incredibly hostile environment of Skyrim itself.

 

Also, in both cases, in the face of the Thalmor threat, it is possible that a new hero will emerge, following in the footsteps of Alessia, Reman and Talos.

 

PS. A few people seem to have missed a few issues. One. Nobody remembers High Rock, they defeated the Cameron Usurper, and are thus capable of unity when the need arises. Two. This talk of magic Vs melee seems to forget that the first empire was forged by the Nords, who had forced the Falmer (who where very capable of magic at the time) out of Skyrim and assisted greatly in the defeat of the elves in Cyrodiil (Again competent at magic). While magic is useful in combat, does that mean your character always dies when facing mages? Three. The Thalmor do not want a Stormcloak victory, they have an article on Ulfric which states this.

Edited December 16, 2011 by RighthandofSithis

[RighthandofSithis]

This is an interesting topic. This is a political struggle between the declining Cyrodillic Empire and the Stormcloak revolutionaries with the Thalmor looking at both sides and seeing that the empire is weakening as a result of the civil war, but do not have total support for either side, rather wishing to have control over both.

 

Before I continue with my evaluation of the situation, I wish to express that in reality, I am an anti-imperialist, and a supporter of egalitarianism (Meaning I don't like Empires or racism etc).

 

The empire is a superpower that has seen it's glory days, but those days seem to be behind them. The Great War with the Thalmor had cost the Empire much of it's prestige, armed forces and, as always with wars of such severity, likely much of the Empire's wealth. Some would say that the Empire is defiantly falling, and that the Thalmor are an indestructable force. However, Both sides had lost much during the Great War. The Thalmor had to accept the peace treaty as well, thus they are not likely in the best position either (If they where, they would have attacked again), albeit the Thalmor don't have to put up with the continuous warring of their own people.

 

Nonetheless, should Skyrim become independent, the empire's fall will be inevitable. The Empire only consists of only three provinces now, Cyrodiil, High Rock and Skyrim. Skyrim is right in the middle of these three places. Thus is Skyrim leaves, the High Rock will have troubled or no communication with Cyrodiil and will be forced to leave (Returning to it's traditional feudalism). However, if the Empire remains united, it would mean that the Thalmor would have to face a unified foe.

 

The Stormcloak revolutionaries on the other hand wish to free themselves from the Empire which they see as being controlled by/allied with the Thalmor. It seems that many Nords are sympathetic to these beliefs. While it is obvious that the Thalmor are not allied with the Empire (They are in fact the greatest of foes), the Nordic people feel shamed that the Thalmor have defeated humanity and to appease them (however temporary) that they must be permitted to deny them their own gods and put up with the elven demands. This is not helped by Nordic xenophobia. Ever since the Slaughter at Saarthal in the First Era, the Nords have always hated the elves, and Elves have always hated the Nords.

 

While the Stormcloaks may be racist, they clearly have the interests of their own people at heart. Skyrim's independence be secured, the Empire will fall. However, this will open opportunities for diplomatic relations with Hammerfell. While Hammerfell is a ruined nation, it is once again reunited and with help from other nations, such as Skyrim, would be able to become a force capable of combating the Thalmor once again. Not only this, but as Skyrim is the northernmost nation in Tamriel, the Thalmor would have to advance through much hostile territory to be able to threaten it. Even then, it would have to advance through the Jerall mountains, an almost impossible barrier between Skyrim and Cyrodiil, and then advance into the incredibly hostile environment of Skyrim itself (and after getting that far, it would be quite likely that their supply lines would run thin and also experience trouble entering through Pale Pass, and their forces would be dramatically reduced due to fatalities and having to garrison troops in each city they take to ensue they keep them. As shown in WW2 and the realities of war).

 

Also, in both cases, in the face of the Thalmor threat, it is possible that a new hero will emerge, following in the footsteps of Alessia, Reman and Talos.

 

PS. A few people seem to have missed a few issues. One. Nobody remembers High Rock, they defeated the Cameron Usurper, and are thus capable of unity when the need arises. Two. This talk of magic Vs melee seems to forget that the first empire was forged by the Nords, who had forced the Falmer (who where very capable of magic at the time) out of Skyrim and assisted greatly in the defeat of the elves in Cyrodiil (Again competent at magic). While magic is useful in combat, does that mean your character always dies when facing mages? Three. The Thalmor do not want a Stormcloak victory, they have an article on Ulfric which states this.