Imperial VS Stormcloak

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

the situation between the Empire invading Akavir by sea and the Dominion invading Skyrim is very different.

 

the Empire was restricted to crossing a sea to resupply

the Dominion could resupply through Cyrodiil, High Rock or Morrowind as well as by sea

can you see the difference?

the Empire could not resupply or reinforce the Expeditionary force

the Dominion doesn't have the same restrictions

 

 

So Cyrodiil, Hammerfell, High Rock and Morrowind are just going to allow the AD to roll in and attack Skyrim. I dont think so. They will have to fight Hammerfell again, which they showed they cant do easily, they have to fight Morrowind, who hates them as well. They have to fight the Bretons as well, all of this will divert their resources. Also I have explained before that taking Skyrim, due to its natural defenses, cannot be taken without an overwhelming military force, which the AD doesnt have. Thus why they are playing the divide and conquer game.

 

The Sea of Ghosts is also arctic waters, not some pond with no waves and beasts.

 

To get to Skyrim they will have to take forts, kill Imperials who wont be caught off guard, they have to march through a pass which is a choke point allowing for guerrillas to attack. The guerrillas know they land far better than the AD, and the Nords have a large military force. A force of, at the minimum, of 5,000 men. So if the AD cant take Hammerfell, how could they take Skyrim?

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

the situation between the Empire invading Akavir by sea and the Dominion invading Skyrim is very different.

 

 

Ulfrics actions have been short sighted and more for his glory than for the people of Skyrim.

seeing as how Torygg is seen as weak willed and a puppet, it should have been easy for Ulfric to have made him into his puppet.

then Ulfric could have set about taking over the Empire and reforming it with Skyrim as the dominant power.

Ulfric is a big fish in a little pond when he could have been a big shark in an ocean and benefitted everyone in Tamriel who opposes the Dominion.

his actions have alienated a lot of his potential allies.

 

 

Ulfric killed Torygg to prove how weak he was, how much better Ulfric is and was than Torygg, Toyrgg was no boy, he was the High King of Skyrim. He was the High King because his father was High King. The Empire said "Ulfric 'murdered' him to not lose Elisif's claim to the throne and not lose their position in Skyrim because they need the resources. With Ulfric as High King is jeopardizes their over-all position in Skyrim and this is not what they want.

 

"Once we've driven the Imperials from the reach, we can stop the raping of her silver mines. That silver belongs in Skyrim." - Ulfric

 

So Ulfric has severed potential with his allies by killing his king? Morrowind, controlled by House Redoran, dislikes the Empire for abandoning it twice. Hammerfell hates the Empire for betraying it, twice. Black Marsh doesnt really care, Elsweyr is with the AD, High Rock is suffering from cities being attacked by corsairs. The Stormcloaks hate the Empire for stealing the silver from the reach, banning the worship of Talos, enforcing the will of the Thalmor, bashing Nordic culture and torturing Nords. Ya I can see why the empire would get all the allies (Sarcasm)

 

The Empire is screwed. Rather than giving an actual argument against our proof that the Empire is crumbling you have to attack and say "Ulfric is an opportunist" - Well so was Titus Mede I, and your fighting for that Empire. He Stormed the White-Gold Tower and claimed himself Emperor, during the Stormcrown interregnum. That sounds like something that opportunistic to me. Titus Mede II took the chance to sign the WGC after taking back his throne in order to keep his throne, sold out Hammerfell, banned the Worship of Talos, and allowed the Thalmor to establish roots anywhere in the Empire.

[sajuukkhar9000]

So Cyrodiil, Hammerfell, High Rock and Morrowind are just going to allow the AD to roll in and attack Skyrim. I dont think so. They will have to fight Hammerfell again, which they showed they cant do easily, they have to fight Morrowind, who hates them as well. They have to fight the Bretons as well, all of this will divert their resources. Also I have explained before that taking Skyrim, due to its natural defenses, cannot be taken without an overwhelming military force, which the AD doesnt have. Thus why they are playing the divide and conquer game.

 

Why would the Redguard help the Nords when the nords refused to help them?

Why would the Dunmer help the nords, who are thier most ancient of rivals, and whose leader has oppressed thier people for years?

How could Cyrodiil help the Nords when the AD has to conquer Cyrodiil to attack Skyrim in the first place?

As for the Bretons, the petty kingdoms of High Rock would be far to busy with infighting, as they always do, to help the Nords.

 

 

Also, the Redguards only bat the AD becuase the AD changed thier main goal to Cyrodiil, and didnt want to keep throwing resources at a placce they no longer really wanted. Had the AD actually cared about keeping Hammerfeel, they could have swept the Redguards easily, but the AD was far more focused on the next war with Cyrodiil. Winning becuase the enemy stopped caring doesnt show much on the part of the Redguards.

Edited March 31, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[TheLoreSeeker]

 

 

You forgot an important point.

 

It was the Nords who saved the empire, not the empire. The Nords saved the Empire when they stormed the White-Gold Tower.

 

Technically the Nords are PART of the Empire....so it's the Empire that saved the Empire.

[TheLoreSeeker]

If the Empire was so worried about everyone, then why in the past have they been focused on saving Cyrodiil?

 

Cyrodiil is the seat of government, largest economy, AND Tamriel's largest food producer. If Cyrodiil falls...the Empire's economy crashes, food shortages abound, and there would be no government.

Edited March 31, 2013 by TheLoreSeeker

[TheLoreSeeker]

ALSO....y'all really need to stop quoting the situation in the Reach. That's a totally separate incident and it's true that BOTH sides are mistreating the Reachmen.

The Reachmen who still live in Markarth make it clear that the Forsworn were once just guerrilla rebels...but since the Markarth incident they've devolved into crazy cultists that have allied with the Hagravens and kill anything in their path.

It's a lost cause....but one started by the Nords of ages past to be sure.

[TheLoreSeeker]

"Ulfric killed Torygg to prove how weak he was, how much better Ulfric is and was than Torygg, Toyrgg was no boy, he was the High King of Skyrim. He was the High King because his father was High King. The Empire said "Ulfric 'murdered' him to not lose Elisif's claim to the throne..."

 

"So Ulfric has severed potential with his allies by killing his king?

Morrowind, controlled by House Redoran, dislikes the Empire for abandoning it twice.

Hammerfell hates the Empire for betraying it, twice.

Black Marsh doesnt really care,

Elsweyr is with the AD,

High Rock is suffering from cities being attacked by corsairs.

The Stormcloaks hate the Empire for stealing the silver from the reach, banning the worship of Talos, enforcing the will of the Thalmor, bashing Nordic culture and torturing Nords. "

 

"The Empire is screwed. Rather than giving an actual argument against our proof that the Empire is crumbling you have to attack and say "Ulfric is an opportunist" - Well so was Titus Mede I, and your fighting for that Empire. He Stormed the White-Gold Tower and claimed himself Emperor, during the Stormcrown interregnum. That sounds like something that opportunistic to me. "

 

3 points I wish to touch on.

 

Torygg and the Duel

 

Why did Ulfric kill Torygg?, because he knew he could.

- Ulfric was using Torygg to make a statement so even if it was an honor duel, it was unfair from the get go. When Torygg accepted, he knew he was going to die, but he chose the honorable path rather than forsake the old way. Seems like a pretty decent Nord so far.

- Compared to Ulfric, Torygg was in fact a “boy”. Ulfric was at least twice Torygg’s age and a seasoned war veteran by that time. The fact that Torygg was a fan of Ulfric’s only further adds to the sympathy I feel for him. He respected Ulfric, he was willing to find a diplomatic solution with Ulfric, but that didn’t stop Ulfric from killing him.

- Your claim that Ulfric was “better” harkens back to what I said earlier about Ulfric’s “warrior mentality” vs Torygg’s “diplomat mentality”. Ulfric lives by a “the strongest should rule” mentality. This in and of itself shows that he would make a crappy ruler, a good warlord maybe…but not a good diplomat.

- They say “murdered” because of how one-sided the duel was. Everyone knew Torygg would lose. Ulfric had more skill, experience, and fighting ability. The thing that pisses everyone off is that he didn’t win “honorably”. He used the Thu’um and shouted Torygg to the floor, then essentially executed him. So Torygg accepted the honor duel and then Ulfric “cheated”. I know you could argue that Shouting is a skill and a tool that should be used, but that goes against the mentality of the Greybeards who instructed Ulfric to use his skill for different goals. His current use of the Thu’um is technically abusing its intended use.

 

The Provinces of Tamriel as "Allies"

 

This MAY or MAY NOT be the case. None of the alliances are set in stone either way. But there are reasons why many of them could say “No” to Ulfric.

- Morrowind is a mere husk of its former self…and House Redoran has always held great respect for the Imperial Legion. Even if they, as a House, dislike Imperial culture; the Dunmer still hold a long and jaded history with Nord warlords.

- There is no conclusive evidence to prove that Hammerfell “HATES” the Empire. So we should stop throwing that term around. So far we don’t know a lot about the situation in Hammerfell. It seems like they’re trying to sort out some internal problems before doing anything about the Thalmor.

- Blackmarsh has ALWAYS been the Imperial frontier. So it’s still pretty much wilderness out there.

- Elsweyr hasn’t existed for a LONG time at this point. It’s 2 separate kingdoms now, both under AD rule.

- The situation of the kingdoms in High Rock are a mystery as well, but since we don’t hear anything about things being all screwed up (which if they were, we probably would, Skyrim being neighbors and all) it is safer to assume that they’re still doing OK and in support of the Empire as a whole.

- As for the silver, it has been proven that it’s the Silver-Bloods who are reaping the profits of the silver trade…and Ulfric puts one of THEM on the throne. So it must not be that much of an issue. Plus, the Nords must be buying Imperial food stores with something.

 

The End of the Mede Dynasty vs The End of the Empire

 

Lastly, I won’t argue that the Mede dynasty is probably at its end. BUT that doesn’t mean the Empire as a system will fall. There will more than likely be another succession battle, during which another warlord will rise to the throne. We don’t know… and I’m sure we won’t know until the next TES game. BUT I’m sure as long as the provinces are willing to ally with eachother, then the Tamrielic Empire will continue.

[TheLoreSeeker]

Oooh also, I just thought about this fact. We keep stating that the AD forces are not as strong as they once were...and this is likely true. BUT we cannot discount the fact that they have the best scouts, spies, and battlemages in Tamriel. A LOT can be done with subterfuge and sabotage. And I'm sure we can all agree that a fireball is far more effective at killing someone that a sword is.

[TheLoreSeeker]

 

Look at the facts, Your in denial.

 

I have carefully reviewed the facts and have presented tons of supporting evidence based on Skaven's testimony in her Journal. And if you disagree with me fine, if you wish to to ignore these facts and not even consider this topic fine, but there is no need to insult me. It would appear that, judging by your responses you seem to lack an understanding of when events actually occurred. I wasn't entirely sure myself so I consulted the online Lore-based timeline. This is all I care to say on this, I think I've conveyed the information as best as I could, so if someone else would like to discuss this further with Ulfric, feel free. If I've missed something, please let me know. :smile:

 

Ulfric is merely..."heavily invested" in this argument. He's not a bad guy as far as I can tell, just set in his ways.

 

Although Ulfric, I do recall you mentioning that if the Mede Dynasty was still in control come the next TES game, that you would outright refuse to play it. That MAY mean that you're taking this debate a BIT too seriously.

[Kayyyleb]

 

Ulfric is merely..."heavily invested" in this argument. He's not a bad guy as far as I can tell, just set in his ways.

 

Yeah, that's what I figured. It's fine. Oh and thank you Ulfric for your military service. I have great respect for veterans, even if I don't always agree with them. :smile:

We aren't veterans until we're out of the military. :p