Imperial VS Stormcloak

[ShannonRutherford]

Irileth is a living proof why her race should be called Gray-Skins such a disrespectful B!tcH!!!

[MightyZ0G]

Irileth is excellent.

she is an advisor and bodyguard who speaks her mind rather than being a sycophant always agreeing with Balgruuf

[sisterof]

I think Irileth is secretly Balgruuf's Dominatrix, and he loves her untender ministrations.
Ahem, I mean...

@Kayyyleb: Those are very good points, thanks for sharing. I still think it's understandable that Ulfric wanted to show his army's power, and to let his subjects participate in the revolution instead of sitting idly as he goes for more glory alone. His soldiers are always ranting about wanting to be in the front lines, and Galmar repeatedly says the Stormcloaks are the "meanest, toughest sons of bitches Skyrim has to offer" and want to battle even more than Ulfric does. I liked the points you brought up, though. Ulfric is faaaar from a saint, and taking Whiterun was indeed a very bitter moment, even if there were so many Legionnaires amongst the city guard. I'm curious on your opinion about Ulfric being extremely reluctant, though... Since you pointed out that he cares for nothing but glory and power, why does Galmar need to keep pushing him to act, and why is he always moping around about having to send soldiers to their death?

[Kayyyleb]

I think Irileth is secretly Balgruuf's Dominatrix, and he loves her untender ministrations.

Ahem, I mean...

 

@Kayyyleb: Those are very good points, thanks for sharing. I still think it's understandable that Ulfric wanted to show his army's power, and to let his subjects participate in the revolution instead of sitting idly as he goes for more glory alone. His soldiers are always ranting about wanting to be in the front lines, and Galmar repeatedly says the Stormcloaks are the "meanest, toughest sons of bitches Skyrim has to offer" and want to battle even more than Ulfric does. I liked the points you brought up, though. Ulfric is faaaar from a saint, and taking Whiterun was indeed a very bitter moment, even if there were so many Legionnaires amongst the city guard. I'm curious on your opinion about Ulfric being extremely reluctant, though... Since you pointed out that he cares for nothing but glory and power, why does Galmar need to keep pushing him to act, and why is he always moping around about having to send soldiers to their death?

Sure, I can understand the Stormcloaks are biting at the bit to get into a fight. But why does Ulfric send them after his fellow neutral Nords instead of attacking the Legion? He took the unnecessarily bloody route when he could've saved many lives. It seems there's either contradiction in his character development or an oversight in the quest design because you're right that he seems reluctant or unwilling to attack at times then goes and makes a seemingly rash decision like attacking Whiterun. Perhaps Galmar can be blamed for the deaths at Whiterun because Ulfric simply gave into his pleas for warmongering.

 

Seems like Stormcloak supporters unanimously like Galmar which is hard for me to grasp because I absolutely hate the guy. He comes across as a reckless, warmongering barbarian to me. Ulfric's personal attack dog more or less.

[sisterof]

@Kayyyleb: Galmar comes across as a specially bitter dude to me too. I do like him, and I find his lines hilarious - "That godless Emperor can shove his damn treaty into the steaming nether-reaches of my you-know-where.", remarkable that he wants the Emperor to shove the treaty into his nether-reaches, not the Emperor's. Freudian slip, perhaps? :biggrin: And the whole colorful description made me rofl for a whole minute the first time I heard it. Steaming.

Anyway, I believe he represents all that most people blame on Ulfric. The single most racist line I ever heard from any Stormcloak was said by him - he goes "I'm a man. Skyrim is man's homeland. That's a fact. A fact I'm proud of. There's no shame in that. Read your history." and cuts off the dialogue abruptly. It is the cradle of Men alright, but not only of Men, and the Falmer where there before.

He also seems to be faaaar more reckless, bloodthirsty and fanatical than Ulfric. I remember talking to a friend as I played the Civil War the first time and watched thosescenes with them both, and my comment was along the lines of "Oh god, Galmar goes on and on about how he wants to crush and chew on Imperials and Ulfric is all like.... ok ok but am I still loved? Do I look good in this crown? Are you sure I'm still fashionable and charming? Was my speech good? Are you sure? Really?" like some insecure boy. I don't see him as a villain, but he's quite borderline extremist. Still, I don't see any Imperials or even Thalmor being tortured in dungeons or having their corpses on cages display outside forts. Ulfric never looked like that much of an aggressive warmongerer, he's far more political and careful. Even in his way of talking - when not throwing a fit because of Thalmor presence or the Dragonborn's inefficiency, he talks with the calm and solemnity of High Hrothgar, something Vladimir Kulich is great at. He also seems to keep rooting for the Dragonborn like a secret fanboi while Galmar is completely distrustful and suspicious.

Are you sure you hate reckless barbarians that much? That's what Skyrim's culture is mostly about, being based on Vikings and all. It's part of the atmosphere. The civilized, cosmopolitan and gracefully corrupted Cyrodiil is indeed quite different. Skyrim was made to be cold and harsh (with its own brand of corruption, of course), from the scenery to the conflicts and the people. I understand a more Cyrodiilic character being outraged at the brutality, but wouldn't a Nord feel right at home? I find some charm in this feral side of people.

Your point about being a character development issue or oversight is quite important too. How can we even debate something to its full extent if the developers themselves not only give us little information, but also contradicting things that are not for the sake of ambiguity but purely lack of attention? I often feel that the players engage in thinking far more than the scriptwriters did. Of course this is TES and we know how deep the caracter will be, but it would be nice if they gave more attention to that side of the story. Their level of commitment to plot/characters is quite unfortunate.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

 

Kayyyleb, on 02 Apr 2013 - 15:00, said:

sisterof, on 02 Apr 2013 - 13:24, said:

I think Irileth is secretly Balgruuf's Dominatrix, and he loves her untender ministrations.

Ahem, I mean...

 

@Kayyyleb: Those are very good points, thanks for sharing. I still think it's understandable that Ulfric wanted to show his army's power, and to let his subjects participate in the revolution instead of sitting idly as he goes for more glory alone. His soldiers are always ranting about wanting to be in the front lines, and Galmar repeatedly says the Stormcloaks are the "meanest, toughest sons of bitches Skyrim has to offer" and want to battle even more than Ulfric does. I liked the points you brought up, though. Ulfric is faaaar from a saint, and taking Whiterun was indeed a very bitter moment, even if there were so many Legionnaires amongst the city guard. I'm curious on your opinion about Ulfric being extremely reluctant, though... Since you pointed out that he cares for nothing but glory and power, why does Galmar need to keep pushing him to act, and why is he always moping around about having to send soldiers to their death?

Sure, I can understand the Stormcloaks are biting at the bit to get into a fight. But why does Ulfric send them after his fellow neutral Nords instead of attacking the Legion? He took the unnecessarily bloody route when he could've saved many lives. It seems there's either contradiction in his character development or an oversight in the quest design because you're right that he seems reluctant or unwilling to attack at times then goes and makes a seemingly rash decision like attacking Whiterun. Perhaps Galmar can be blamed for the deaths at Whiterun because Ulfric simply gave into his pleas for warmongering.

 

Seems like Stormcloak supporters unanimously like Galmar which is hard for me to grasp because I absolutely hate the guy. He comes across as a reckless, warmongering barbarian to me. Ulfric's personal attack dog more or less.

 

While the reasons you dislike Galmar make sense, I think its funny how I like him for those reasons. I see him as a warrior, not a politician. He takes action when he needs to and even Rikke says "The Stone-Fists no fool, he's found the crown." But I focus on the "He's no fool" part. A lot of his dialogue is really cool, as you can see in my sig.

 

When Balgruuf refuses Ulfric's axe, he asks Tullius for legionnaires to garrison in the city, so Ulfric is fighting the Legion. Like Tullius says - "If he's planning an attack on Whiterun, we need to be there to stop him." So there's a lot more thought put into the attack and defense of Whiterun rather than this seemingly rash decision to just storm the walls.

 

Galmar: "Balgruuf won't give us a straight answer."

Ulfric: "He's a true Nord. He'll come around."

Galmar: "Don't be so sure of that. We've intercepted couriers from Solitude. The Empire's putting a great deal of pressure on Whiterun."

Ulfric: "And what would you have me do?"

Galmar: "If he's not with us, he's against us."

Ulfric: "He knows that. They all know that."

Galmar: "How long are you going to wait?"

Ulfric: "You think I need to send Balgruuf a stronger message."

Galmar: "If by message you mean shoving a sword through his gullet."

Ulfric: "Taking his city and leaving him in disgrace would make a more powerful statement, don't you think?"

Galmar: "So we're ready to start this war in earnest then?"

Ulfric: "Soon."

Galmar: "I still say you should take them all out like you did Deadking Torygg."

Ulfric: "Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies."

Galmar: "We're ready when you are."

Ulfric: "Things hinge on Whiterun. If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better. But if not..."

Galmar: "The people are behind you."

Ulfric: "Many I fear still need convincing."

 

This is said as if you were not listening, they are in the "War" room and are discussing this openly.

 

 

Once you return to Ulfric after acquiring the Jagged Crown, he will remark: "Damn him - the old bear was right! Did you run into any trouble?" If you notify him that the Imperials were there beforehand, he will say: "Damn it. What were they doing there? Imperial spies are everywhere. Never forget that... I trust you gave them a thrashing? Now then...I'm glad you're here. I have a message I need delivered to the Jarl of Whiterun. Deliver this axe to Balgruuf the Greater." Asking him about the axe, he will continue: "Yes. An axe. How long have you been in Skyrim? Give the man my axe. If he keeps it, I will bide my time. If he returns it to you, it means war." Also asking him if you should say anything when giving the axe, he will tell you: "Men who understand each other often have no need for words. There are but a few simple truths behind one warrior giving another his axe. Balgruuf will know my meaning." This will initiate the quest, and you are now directed to deliver the axe to Balgruuf in Dragonsreach.

Upon Returning with the axe.

 

Ulfric: "You were right Galmar."

Galmar: "Again?"

Ulfric: "I'm in no mood to joke."

Galmar: "Give the word, my lord, and Whiterun is yours."

Ulfric: "Whiterun is only a means to an end."

Galmar: "I've toured our camps. We're ready, Ulfric... Whenever you are."

Ulfric: "Is any man ever ready to give the order that will mean the deaths of many."

Galmar: "No. But neither is every man able to give that order when he must. But you are that man, Ulfric. You've been that man before, and you'll be him again. And these men and women - they call themselves Stormcloaks because they believe in you... They're the meanest, toughest sons of bitches Skyrim has to offer. And they want this. They want this as much as you do. Perhaps they want it more."

Ulfric: "You're certain we're ready? Whiterun's army will no doubt be bolstered with Legionnaires. And those walls around Whiterun are old, but they still stand."

Galmar: "We're ready. And I might be old myself, but I'll kick those damn walls down with my bare feet! - if you would only ask me to do it!"

Ulfric: "And I'm sure you could do it, too. Alright. This is it."

Galmar: "Yes!"

Ulfric: "Send the word. "A new day is dawning and the sun rises over Whiterun.""

Galmar: "Aye, and the sons of Skyrim will greet that dawn teeth and swords flashing."

Ulfric: "So it begins."

 

Also, a side note about Galmar - he has dialogue that contradicts itself. - "My hatred for the Empire is bested only for love of my countrymen." - "My hatred for the Empire is bested only by hatred for their which elf puppet masters."

Edited April 2, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[Kayyyleb]

Using the Legion in Whiterun is no defense of Ulfric. The Stormcloaks mobilizing against Whiterun forced Balgruuf's hand in joining the Imperials. His only other option is to stand completely alone with a non-ally on one side and an enemy on the other. The "enemy of my enemy is my friend" and Balgruuf understood that. The Legion is in Whiterun because Ulfric practically invited them in by attacking it and created a battle where there didn't need to be one. I'm sorry, but Ulfric's actions at Whiterun are simply not defendable.

[TheLoreSeeker]

True, Galmar is no diplomat. He even states it himself.

"Your words give voice to what we all feel, Ulfric. And that's why you will be High King. But the day words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed."

He's a soldier through and through....and hes got no time for words.

Edited April 3, 2013 by TheLoreSeeker

[Kayyyleb]

@Kayyyleb:

Are you sure you hate reckless barbarians that much? That's what Skyrim's culture is mostly about, being based on Vikings and all. It's part of the atmosphere. The civilized, cosmopolitan and gracefully corrupted Cyrodiil is indeed quite different. Skyrim was made to be cold and harsh (with its own brand of corruption, of course), from the scenery to the conflicts and the people. I understand a more Cyrodiilic character being outraged at the brutality, but wouldn't a Nord feel right at home? I find some charm in this feral side of people.

 

Your point about being a character development issue or oversight is quite important too. How can we even debate something to its full extent if the developers themselves not only give us little information, but also contradicting things that are not for the sake of ambiguity but purely lack of attention? I often feel that the players engage in thinking far more than the scriptwriters did. Of course this is TES and we know how deep the caracter will be, but it would be nice if they gave more attention to that side of the story. Their level of commitment to plot/characters is quite unfortunate.

 

A good observation. Yes, I do hate reckless barbarians and as a result Skyrim's culture generally leaves a bad taste in my mouth. While I usually play a Breton ingame, I play with the mindset that would match an Imperial and I very easily attached myself to Tullius' character. IRL I'm much more of a rationalist, realistic, skeptic type of person and the Imperials represent those ideals infinitely better than the Stormcloaks.

[Mushashi7]

Isn't it a political matter?

I always join up with the stormcloacks. I can't stand the nice and well dressed empire. Just like trained identical puppies. Everything in order, precise and correct. Slaves of authorities and systems, so they don't have to think so much by them selves.

I tried to join the empire one single time. I was so bored.
Well, I also find the story and quest line only half as good as the stormclock part.

Ah well, I guess it's just a reaction on the world today, with all the centralised goverments, high tech and the way we get further away from nature.